How can I call myself a ____ if I love discipline? Easy!!

feminist? Christian? Pagan? Athiest? Loving partner? Adult?...

if you let someone discipline you?

Well, I know that we *are* all of those things, or whatever else we define ourselves to be. But sometimes, we just need to check in with other people, and be reminded that we're not doing something bad or wrong.

How can I call myself a ____ if I love discipline? Easy!!

Postby dd_bottom » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:32 am

Well, what an interesting topic. I happen to be a Unitarian Universalist, have been since age 21 -- way back before I had done anything more than a couple tentative and for the most part frustrating forays into Spanking Land. If you don't know this joke yet, here goes:

Q: When the Ku Klux Klan comes to the Unitarian's house, what do they burn on the lawn?
A: A huge question mark.

Point is, I have for all of my adult life been curious, questioning, a devil's advocate if you will. I would not be comfortable standing up in my church discussing my kink -- but I am comforted to know that UUs welcome everyone -- gay, straight, questioning, Democratic, Republican (hmm, at least technically), religious, humanist, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, you name it -- anyone who is willing to extend the same acceptance to others in their journey as has been extended to them.

What's odd is that I didn't quite accept my own Spanko Self, at least not until recently. I'm learning.
User avatar
dd_bottom
Rank 2
Rank 2
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:54 am
Location: Washington state, USA
spam_b: I don't spam. I don't even like Spam and eggs anymore, though I grew up eating them regularly.
How did you find the board?: I was a long-time reader of The Treehouse and somehow made the aha! discovery that very similar, very thoughtful content could now be found on this board.

Re: How can I call myself a ____ if I love discipline? Easy!!

Postby bodack » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:06 am

dd_bottom wrote:What's odd is that I didn't quite accept my own Spanko Self, at least not until recently. I'm learning.


What has helped me is watching movies like SAW, I Know Who Killed Me and My Bloody Valentine. My biggest issue has been the violence against women thing and how socially non acceptable spanking is from that standpoint.

Then you watch these movies which are very popular which have lots of violence against women. Go to the movies with women who watch these movies with an intensity that most of us Spanko's would watch a good punishment spanking. I wonder how many of these women who enjoy these movies deep down inside would really like a good punishment spanking but for political reasons would never admit it.

I want to make a horror movie where instead of a man with a machete hunts down scantily clad women he has a thick leather belt. :hairbrush:
bodack
Rank 3
Rank 3
 
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:05 pm

Re: How can I call myself a ____ if I love discipline? Easy!!

Postby dd_bottom » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:27 am

Hmm. A new genre:

I want to make a horror movie where instead of a man with a machete hunts down scantily clad women he has a thick leather belt.


I think it's obvious from the popularity of Madonna and the movie "Secretary" that spanking has edged pretty far into the mainstream. It's still on the edge, of course, and while people might kid about being into it, God forbid it gets around at work.. So far four people in my life know: my husband (my D), my (our) psychiatrist, my gay friend Joe, and a woman I met on a PTSD support board who said it's quite common for survivors of childhood abuse to enjoy (hunger for is how I'd put it) power exchange. I'd call it, for myself, not power exhange but consensual relinquishment of power by the s to the D. My D, ever the philosopher, says bdsm is just an amped-up version of your plain-vanilla ravaging fantasy. I say I dunno.

I may still close the windows and crank up the white noise, but I'll be darned if I'll hide from myself any longer. Maybe we need another Smilie: Power to the Pervs.

Thanks, all.
User avatar
dd_bottom
Rank 2
Rank 2
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:54 am
Location: Washington state, USA
spam_b: I don't spam. I don't even like Spam and eggs anymore, though I grew up eating them regularly.
How did you find the board?: I was a long-time reader of The Treehouse and somehow made the aha! discovery that very similar, very thoughtful content could now be found on this board.

Re: How can I call myself a ____ if I love discipline? Easy!!

Postby JigsawAnalogy » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:21 am

I wonder if anyone's done tracking of how the women's movement affected the prevalence of spankings in the media. If you think of older movies, there are a lot that include spankings. Then there was second wave feminism, and things kind of got squashed as a reaction to the massive misogyny. And then there was the third wave and after, as women started to say, "Hey, wait, just because I'm a feminist doesn't mean I can't be/do ____________"

My struggle with acceptance was less about spanking per se, and far more about the discipline side of things. I was comfortable with spanking-as-kink; that was a form of empowerment, and I'd had lots of great role models that I knew enjoyed spanking-as-kink. But needing someone to be in charge of me, have rules for me, etc.? That was a much harder thing to come to terms with.
User avatar
JigsawAnalogy
rank 6
rank 6
 
Posts: 2875
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:44 am
Location: New York
spam_b: I am not a spammer, I *delete* spammers!
How did you find the board?: Hm. Well, I was poking around in my imagination, and there it was.

Re: How can I call myself a ____ if I love discipline? Easy!!

Postby topper2 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:23 am

Spanking was in a lot of books too. When I was in college 30 years ago, the alternative bookstore had a sign up in front of the Robert Heinlein books warning readers he was a misogynist and spankings lurked within.
User avatar
topper2
Rank 3
Rank 3
 
Posts: 234
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:27 pm

Re: How can I call myself a ____ if I love discipline? Easy!!

Postby bodack » Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:49 pm

JigsawAnalogy wrote:I wonder if anyone's done tracking of how the women's movement affected the prevalence of spankings in the media. If you think of older movies, there are a lot that include spankings. Then there was second wave feminism, and things kind of got squashed as a reaction to the massive misogyny. And then there was the third wave and after, as women started to say, "Hey, wait, just because I'm a feminist doesn't mean I can't be/do ____________"


I know the feminists in the U.S. managed to get the Crimes Against Women Act passed. The CAW prohibited films from showing any sexual violence against women. Like rape scenes or even spanking if there were sexual connotations to the act.

Of course that meant goodbye to moves like Gone with the Wind, Young Frankenstein, and High Planes Drifter. Most of it has been thrown out by the courts.

I wonder if actresses just refused to do scenes where they were subservient to men.
Can you imaging Jane Fonda being spanked by John Wayne? :smoke:
bodack
Rank 3
Rank 3
 
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:05 pm

Re: How can I call myself a ____ if I love discipline? Easy!!

Postby JigsawAnalogy » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:43 pm

That's odd. I haven't heard of the Crimes Against Women Act, and I didn't find it in a Google search.

I'm familiar with the Violence Against Women Act, which focuses on penalizing rape and domestic violence, and on changing the medical and legal responses. It does things like funds domestic violence shelters. It doesn't have provisions for outlawing violent scenes in movies.
User avatar
JigsawAnalogy
rank 6
rank 6
 
Posts: 2875
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:44 am
Location: New York
spam_b: I am not a spammer, I *delete* spammers!
How did you find the board?: Hm. Well, I was poking around in my imagination, and there it was.

Re: How can I call myself a ____ if I love discipline? Easy!!

Postby bodack » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:42 pm

JigsawAnalogy wrote:That's odd. I haven't heard of the Crimes Against Women Act, and I didn't find it in a Google search.

I'm familiar with the Violence Against Women Act, which focuses on penalizing rape and domestic violence, and on changing the medical and legal responses. It does things like funds domestic violence shelters. It doesn't have provisions for outlawing violent scenes in movies.



I am getting ready to head out of town so I don't have to look. I believe you are right on the name. I do remember a number of free speech groups complaining about the bill and some of the provisions on movies. It was the civil suit aspect that was thrown out by the Supreme Court. Perhaps it was part of this that has the provisions I am talking about. Unfortunately not everything in print is on the internet.

Another issue is the summaries you get in the news really don't tell the story with the amendments, riders and set asides on the bill. Just look at the news reports on the Credit Card reform act. :dragon: I better stop now. Just thinking about the Credit Card Reform (yeah right) is getting my blood pressure up.
bodack
Rank 3
Rank 3
 
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:05 pm

Re: How can I call myself a ____ if I love discipline? Easy

Postby sharedrawer » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:53 am

Nice post...........



adult toys
sharedrawer
Newbie
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:50 am
spam_b: I am not a spammer.
How did you find the board?: I like your website..

Re: How can I call myself a ____ if I love discipline? Easy

Postby artlover » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:41 pm

JigsawAnalogy wrote:That's odd. I haven't heard of the Crimes Against Women Act, and I didn't find it in a Google search.

I'm familiar with the Violence Against Women Act, which focuses on penalizing rape and domestic violence, and on changing the medical and legal responses. It does things like funds domestic violence shelters. It doesn't have provisions for outlawing violent scenes in movies.


It sounds like Bodack is referring to the famous Dworkin-MacKinnon anti-pornography statute or ordinance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipornog ... _Ordinance

A version of this was passed by the City of Indianapolis, and struck down in the Hudnut decision as in violation of the First Amendment.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case? ... i=scholarr

I understand that Canadian law on pornography, which is much less friendly to freedom of speech, is based on premises similar to this ordinance.

For those who don't see the danger in such laws, think of how it might apply to a faithful movie version of a well known book (poem, really):

The protagonists (heroes, literally) are a group of marauding warriors who sail off to conquer a foreign city. Along the way, they sack several other cities. They kill most of the men and boys, and take young women (teenagers, most likely) captive as part of the loot. The young women are distributed among the raiders just like gold or other valuables. The young women have to sleep with the men who destroyed their homes and killed their families, and look after their personal needs. Two of the young women are assigned to two friends, who sleep with them in the same tent. The young women like one of the men, because he is nice to them, and they are greatly distressed when he is killed in battle.

That, of course, is the Iliad, and as the Court points out, a faithful film version would highly at risk under this ordinance. As the drafters of the ordinance made clear, in their view the artistic or cultural value of works are irrelevant, if the subject matter involves the sexual subordination of women.

This quote from the decision would apply to most spanking stories or video:

"Under the ordinance graphic sexually explicit speech is "pornography" or not depending on the perspective the author adopts. Speech that "subordinates" women and also, for example, presents women as enjoying pain, humiliation, or rape, or even simply presents women in "positions of servility or submission or display" (corner time anyone??? Across a pillow waiting to be punished???) is forbidden, no matter how great the literary or political value of the work taken as a whole"

This is no surprise. In the view of this strain of feminism, women cannot freely choose to, for example, be physically disciplined by their husband, as they are suffering from a kind of "false consciousness" their consent being influenced by pernicious patriarchal cultural influences.
artlover
Rank 3
Rank 3
 
Posts: 205
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:31 pm
Location: Connecticut
spam_b: I am most certainly not a spammer
How did you find the board?: I was googling around and there you were!

Re: How can I call myself a ____ if I love discipline? Easy

Postby splorange » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:26 pm

artlover wrote:"Under the ordinance graphic sexually explicit speech is "pornography" or not depending on the perspective the author adopts. Speech that "subordinates" women and also, for example, presents women as enjoying pain, humiliation, or rape, or even simply presents women in "positions of servility or submission or display" (corner time anyone??? Across a pillow waiting to be punished???) is forbidden, no matter how great the literary or political value of the work taken as a whole"

This is no surprise. In the view of this strain of feminism, women cannot freely choose to, for example, be physically disciplined by their husband, as they are suffering from a kind of "false consciousness" their consent being influenced by pernicious patriarchal cultural influences.


Tricky.... but pornography's not illegal in the US is it? So it's still available to those who enjoy it and choose to seek it out, without being shown as something so normal as to be expected of women (we're all 'normal', but there's normal as in being ok however you are, and there's normal as in everyone must do this). I have to say though, all the spanking porn I've ever come across featured men being punished. I guess if there's an equal amount given to men and women, that seems ok.

Even having chosen this life, I'm not sure I'd like my daughter too exposed to it in case she thought it was expected of her or desirable.

And as far as your last line goes - I'm not sure this is any more harmful than the interpretation of biblical teachings that is to be read on the Christian Domestic Discipline website, which states that women have a natural tendency, since the Fall, to seek to dominate men, and men have an equal tendency to let them do it for the same reason. It says that without this, feminism would never have happened (except they see this as a bad thing...). So any woman who would like to do what she likes, instead of what a man says, is under the influence of feminism and her own naturally evil nature.
'I had made the mistake of powering up my consciousness without having the appropriate scaffolding in place'

Marni Jackson, 'Pain'
User avatar
splorange
Rank 3
Rank 3
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 5:43 pm
Location: CORK!
spam_b: I am definitely not a spam bot.
How did you find the board?: The punishment book website links to it.

Re: How can I call myself a ____ if I love discipline? Easy

Postby artlover » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:24 pm

splorange, pornography (as opposed to obscenity) is genearally legal in the U.S. What made the MacKinnon Dworkin/"radical feminist" approach to adult content so controversial is it sought to regulate it based on whether it was "good" or "bad" in how it presented women. The kind of relationships discussed on this site, in which females are presented as wanting and needing physical discipline, would be really really bad in this view. The very idea is pernicious, even if the women consent and really mean it, would be desperately unhappy without it.

As the Court ruled in the Hudnut decision, this distinction is not permissible under U.S. law.

I am surprised you say that the only "spanking porn" you ever came across featured men being disciplined. I am aware that such exists, but have not seen it. The amount of porn featuring women being spanked, from spanking romance novels (I was stunned at how much came up when I searched "spanking" on Barnes and Nobles ebook site) to hard edged videos, is huge. There are quite a few people producing spanking art, for example, and most is M/f or F/f.

AS to your last point, from what I can see, there is a fair amount of diversity in CDD. Many people involved in CDD appear to view it as an expression of something fundamental about their relationship to their spouse and God, and not as something that applies to all Christians. I get that in some incarnations CDD is very doctrinaire. The same can be said of secular dd. You can read pages of analysis of how women are naturally submissive to men, etc., on some dd sites. IMO, much of CDD is little different than TTWD, it just has a religious overlay.
artlover
Rank 3
Rank 3
 
Posts: 205
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:31 pm
Location: Connecticut
spam_b: I am most certainly not a spammer
How did you find the board?: I was googling around and there you were!

Re: How can I call myself a ____ if I love discipline? Easy

Postby splorange » Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:38 am

artlover wrote:I am surprised you say that the only "spanking porn" you ever came across featured men being disciplined. I am aware that such exists, but have not seen it. The amount of porn featuring women being spanked, from spanking romance novels (I was stunned at how much came up when I searched "spanking" on Barnes and Nobles ebook site) to hard edged videos, is huge. There are quite a few people producing spanking art, for example, and most is M/f or F/f.


I was surprised too! But there it is. That said, I wouldn't do a general google search for spanking because I've seen too many things by accident that are outside my hard limits. Of course I've seen mild spanking of women on youtube, but what youtube permits is going to be reasonably soft. It was in an adult store that I saw many, many videos of men spanked by men. I was looking for women! I do know that there's a lot of spanking art featuring women, but I haven't seen videos of such beyond the mildest presentation.

artlover wrote:splorange, pornography (as opposed to obscenity) is genearally legal in the U.S. What made the MacKinnon Dworkin/"radical feminist" approach to adult content so controversial is it sought to regulate it based on whether it was "good" or "bad" in how it presented women. The kind of relationships discussed on this site, in which females are presented as wanting and needing physical discipline, would be really really bad in this view. The very idea is pernicious, even if the women consent and really mean it, would be desperately unhappy without it.

As the Court ruled in the Hudnut decision, this distinction is not permissible under U.S. law.


Can you clarify what you meant by not permissible under US law? I'm not sure whether you meant that judging presentation of women as 'good' or 'bad' is not permissible, or that allowing presentation of women as desiring discipline is not permissible. I think it was the former but not sure.

artlover wrote:AS to your last point, from what I can see, there is a fair amount of diversity in CDD. Many people involved in CDD appear to view it as an expression of something fundamental about their relationship to their spouse and God, and not as something that applies to all Christians. I get that in some incarnations CDD is very doctrinaire. The same can be said of secular dd. You can read pages of analysis of how women are naturally submissive to men, etc., on some dd sites. IMO, much of CDD is little different than TTWD, it just has a religious overlay.


I am very glad to hear it! Maybe it's living in Ireland, but I react strongly to language suggesting that women are designed by God to be submissive to men, and only attempt to follow their own desires because of their innate sinfulness (recently an Irish priest was banned by the Vatican from writing in a Catholic magazine because he suggested that allowing married priests, female priests, and artificial contraception might be ideas for the church to consider). So I find this attitude much more harmful. I think the second-wave feminists were wrong in many ways, but they were just a step to a greater truth. Sometimes you need a radical opinion that crushes all the previous norms, just so that the next generation of scholarship isn't read between very narrow, pre-existing goalposts.
'I had made the mistake of powering up my consciousness without having the appropriate scaffolding in place'

Marni Jackson, 'Pain'
User avatar
splorange
Rank 3
Rank 3
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 5:43 pm
Location: CORK!
spam_b: I am definitely not a spam bot.
How did you find the board?: The punishment book website links to it.

Re: How can I call myself a ____ if I love discipline? Easy

Postby artlover » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:23 pm

splorange wrote:Can you clarify what you meant by not permissible under US law? I'm not sure whether you meant that judging presentation of women as 'good' or 'bad' is not permissible, or that allowing presentation of women as desiring discipline is not permissible. I think it was the former but not sure.


The former is correct. The proponents of these ordinances were trying to change the law, to get around the First Amendment protection of free speech. For a while, there was a fair amount of support for doing this. A couple of cities adopted these ordinances, and several more debated them. The fact that there were groups that identified themselves as feminist that opposed these ordinances helped torpedo more than one. Of course, as Hudnut decision showed, they were clearly unconstitutional. The US Supreme Court affirmed Hudnut without opinion, and the decision was the high water mark of the controversy.

As for M/f and F/f spanking "porn" (you could argue, given that much of it has no explicit sexual content, it is not really porn) I agree that a lot of it is way to severe for my taste. Further, I don't care much for many of the themes. The schoolgirl thing, for example. Nor do I like scenes in which the spanker calls the spankee denigrating names. I don't get that at all. And as I have posted elsewhere on here, the men doing the spanking often are rather creepy looking.

Some of the models are lovely, though. And there is some good stuff mixed in with all the trash (though I do get that one person's good stuff is another person's trash).
artlover
Rank 3
Rank 3
 
Posts: 205
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:31 pm
Location: Connecticut
spam_b: I am most certainly not a spammer
How did you find the board?: I was googling around and there you were!

Re: How can I call myself a ____ if I love discipline? Easy

Postby Eayore » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:41 pm

I completely agree about the use of denigrating names.
User avatar
Eayore
rank 6
rank 6
 
Posts: 1721
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: Ascot, UK
spam_b: What is a spam bot?
How did you find the board?: From the Punishment Book

Next

Return to How can you call yourself a...

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests