Consequences when you don't have consequences

Yeah. Sometimes, you just want to tell other people about the punishment you got (or gave). Come here for commiseration, or as a way to process through your experiences.

Re: Consequences when you don't have consequences

Postby splorange » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:13 am

blackbird wrote:I find the witholding (now you've got ME wondering about the spelling!) of spankings a bit peverse. I understand the logic, but if the major desire between two people to use them as discpiline is to make the relationship closer and work better, it seems an odd way to go about achieving that. It would just make me resentful and behave worse and worse as spanking is such a release for my negativity and anger. Using the argument that bottoms "like it" is missing the paradox that most of us clearly don't at the time - not at all, it's the effects it brings about that we need/want. Just my thoughts.

Blackbird


Agreed, blackbird! I would find it very hard if 'no spanking' was a punishment. I see that he means I won't do it because I'll be afraid of losing out on spankings, but actually I think i'm quite likely to think 'Great, no consequences!' and break the rule. And because my behaviour is such a paradox most of the time, I'd probably use the 2 no-spanking weeks as an excuse to go nuts with rule-breaking, then end up reacting as you've said you would, and take giant leaps backward. However, the solution we've reached that spankings and privileges would be withheld (I expected that to look ridiculous, but now I think maybe the two Hs is right) for 2 weeks followed by a bigger spanking than would otherwise have been administered *works for me*. I knew when he said it that I could deal with that. Whereas when he said 'no spanking for two weeks' I said 'No', he said 'Then don't text in the car' I said 'You don't understand that's not how it works!' I think that as tops, they can't see it our way though. So I'm trying not to take it personally, he is probably assuming I would act the same way as he would.
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Re: Consequences when you don't have consequences

Postby JigsawAnalogy » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:15 am

I think it is hard for tops to grasp that punishment spankings, while effective, are not necessarily something we *like*.

For all that I love a spanking in a fun context, I really hate getting them as punishments. And, actually, over the years I've managed to learn to avoid breaking rules that will get me spanked (or otherwise punished) for that very reason: I don't like being punished, which is why it's effective.

Good luck with him being away. I hope the time passes quickly!
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Re: Consequences when you don't have consequences

Postby artlover » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:41 pm

blackbird wrote:I find the witholding (now you've got ME wondering about the spelling!) of spankings a bit peverse. I understand the logic, but if the major desire between two people to use them as discpiline is to make the relationship closer and work better, it seems an odd way to go about achieving that. It would just make me resentful and behave worse and worse as spanking is such a release for my negativity and anger. Using the argument that bottoms "like it" is missing the paradox that most of us clearly don't at the time - not at all, it's the effects it brings about that we need/want. Just my thoughts.

Blackbird


Yes, withholding spanking sounds logical if you think the bottom wants it, and will feel more punished if she is not punished. But it is far too mechanically minded, focusing solely on punishing the subject behavior, and ignoring the most important aspects of spanking, the relational aspects. I have never read a post by a bottom where she recounted lying in her top's arms, tear streaked and blissed out, feeling loved and cared for, because he refused to spank her. I have never heard of a couple feeling closer together because the top withheld discipline. (People are so various, I am sure it works for somebody, but I doubt for people who are wired for spanking) When it works, spanking addresses the subject behavior in a manner that makes the bottom feel both "dealt with" and cherished. It addresses the suspect behavior in a way that brings the couple closer together. Focusing too mechanically on simply stopping the behavior by imposing the most unwelcome consequence is missing the Forrest for the trees, IMO.

I imagine that those who include non-physical punishments, like lines, etc., are still tapping into this, because there is still the element of willing submission and compliance, which, IMO, is the heart of what makes spanking so effective. There is none of that, IMO, in simply withholding discipline.

And "addressing" the behavior in question in this emotionally satisfying way is, IMO, more important than stopping it, particularly if stopping it comes from some cold, mechanical approach.

Most couples know that the bottom will, sooner or later, do something that will bring her back over the top's lap. Maybe the same thing that led to the last spanking. That does not mean that the spanking was a failure, if it left both of them feeling like the behavior was addressed, the top made his point, the bottomaccepted her discipline and was forgiven, and the couple were feeling close and loving.

I Edited this post to clean up the tenses
Last edited by artlover on Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Consequences when you don't have consequences

Postby splorange » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:44 am

artlover wrote:
blackbird wrote:I find the witholding (now you've got ME wondering about the spelling!) of spankings a bit peverse. I understand the logic, but if the major desire between two people to use them as discpiline is to make the relationship closer and work better, it seems an odd way to go about achieving that. It would just make me resentful and behave worse and worse as spanking is such a release for my negativity and anger. Using the argument that bottoms "like it" is missing the paradox that most of us clearly don't at the time - not at all, it's the effects it brings about that we need/want. Just my thoughts.

Blackbird


Yes, withholding spanking sounds logical if you think the bottom wants it, and will feel more punished if she is not punished. But it is far too mechanically minded, focusing solely on punishing the subject behavior, and ignoring the most important aspects of spanking, the relational aspects. I have never read a post by a bottom where she recounted lying in her top's arms, tear streaked and blissed out, feeling loved and cared for, because he refused to spank her. I have never heard of a couple feeling closer together because the top withheld discipline. (People are so various, I am sure it works for somebody, but I doubt for people who are wired for spanking) When it works, spanking addresses the subject behavior in a manner that makes the bottom feel both "dealt with" and cherished. It addresses the suspect behavior in a way that brings the couple closer together. Focusing too mechanically on simply stopping the behavior by imposing the most unwelcome consequence is missing the Forrest for the trees, IMO.

I imagine that those who include non-physical punishments, like lines, etc., are still tapping into this, because there is still the element of willing submission and compliance, which, IMO, is the heart of what makes spanking so effective. There is none of that, IMO, in simply withholding discipline.

And "addressing" the behavior in question in this emotionally satisfying way is, IMO, more important than stopping it, particularly if stopping it comes from some cold, mechanical approach.

Most couples know that the bottom will, sooner or later, do something that finds herself back over the top's lap. Maybe the same thing that led to the last spanking. That does not mean that the spanking was a failure, if it left both of them feeling like it was addressed, the top has made his point, the bottom has accepted her discipline and is forgiven, and the couple are feeling close and loving.


This is both true and beautiful, artlover. I like that we've turned to a discussion of why withholding spanking might not be effective, and the logistics of punishment, but you've described the emotional benefits of spanking for both top and bottom so well.

To me withholding spanking is a level of withdrawal of love. I know that my chief would never do that to me, but his focus was as you say too mechanical. I also think he didn't grant me enough credit, as when I want a spanking I either ask, or I brat in the most minor way (usually by poking him repeatedly or calling him very immature names, so as to undoubtedly deserve punishment without risking hurting his feelings). I have been working hard to stop looking at my phone while driving and realised that I do it out of boredom - I can be quite hyperactive, and driving while listening to the radio usually isn't enough of a diversion for me. Inexcusable I know, and I've been trying to alleviate the boredom by driving with much greater care instead. I think his focus on avoiding rule breaking didn't take me as a person into account. It's this attitude that has often irked me on other DD forums - I see too much 'How can I stop my wife from...?' and I really think, if you haven't asked her how she thinks you could stop it, you shouldn't be doing this relationship. The quality of the relationship and each person's feelings are more important than just changing behaviour, and should not be sacrificed.
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Re: Consequences when you don't have consequences

Postby lana » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:09 am

Hi Splorange
A while ago we had a woman on with an hoh who believed spanking was a reward for her. so he was withholding spanking and their relationship was having problems. I wrote something &.Im dredging it up again so i wont have to rewrite it.

To a guy who doesnt understand the dynamics of DD, he thinks "why should i reward her with a spanking for bad behavior when a spanking is what she wants?" .... Thereby leaving the sub hurt and confused because she needs the spanking/scolding part in order to feel his dominance and caring in a physical way.
Without that, their relationship may get worse because she is either going to be testing him (provoking him into spanking her, ) or she willl react by withdrawing. Then the hoh may think " this DD thing doesnt work ...."


And this i wrote on the same thread re the feeling that a lot of women into dd get out of spanking & why it works:

Its the feeling of safety and closeness and security that they get after the discipline spanking is over that makes them love and respect the hoh till where they are in a submissive state that allows them to listen to their hoh's pov and to obey him. That the hoh cares enough to do the long warmup and scolding and spanking to show in a very physical way their caring.

Most into dd hate the pain of the spanking while its happening but after its over there is new respect and closeness. It is for many this effect (rather than just the pain of it as a deterrent) that makes dd "work" by making the spankee want to please the hoh. She does not want to disappoint him or get OTK for the same thing again.
This does not say its that way for all -but from what ive read its true for many of us who are blessed (or cursed) with this quirk.

lana :llama:

ps--His idea of withholding your pc privs for 2 weeks would definitely be a deterrent for me. Also he might try a different implement than a hairbrush like a bb or a cane for something that serious. (I hope something works to stop you-- like maybe you have to write an essay entitled "Why texting while driving is very dangerous")
Last edited by lana on Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Consequences when you don't have consequences

Postby blackbird » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:18 am

Totally agree with all you say lana - nicely put!

B
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Re: Consequences when you don't have consequences

Postby Ice-cream » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:17 am

Blackbird

That is perfectly put!
In fact I'm going to learn that off by heart for the next time that argument arises! Why do tops struggle with that?

Sorry for hijacking

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Re: Consequences when you don't have consequences

Postby splorange » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:37 am

lana wrote:Hi Splorange
A while ago we had a woman on with an hoh who believed spanking was a reward for her. so he was withholding spanking and their relationship was having problems. I wrote something &.Im dredging it up again so i wont have to rewrite it.

To a guy who doesnt understand the dynamics of DD, he thinks "why should i reward her with a spanking for bad behavior when a spanking is what she wants?" .... Thereby leaving the sub hurt and confused because she needs the spanking/scolding part in order to feel his dominance and caring in a physical way.
Without that, their relationship may get worse because she is either going to be testing him (provoking him into spanking her, ) or she willl react by withdrawing. Then the hoh may think " this DD thing doesnt work ...."


And this i wrote on the same thread re the feeling that a lot of women into dd get out of spanking & why it works:

Its the feeling of safety and closeness and security that they get after the discipline spanking is over that makes them love and respect the hoh till where they are in a submissive state that allows them to listen to their hoh's pov and to obey him. That the hoh cares enough to do the long warmup and scolding and spanking to show in a very physical way their caring.

Most into dd hate the pain of the spanking while its happening but after its over there is new respect and closeness. It is for many this effect (rather than just the pain of it as a deterrent) that makes dd "work" by making the spankee want to please the hoh. She does not want to disappoint him or get OTK for the same thing again.
This does not say its that way for all -but from what ive read its true for many of us who are blessed (or cursed) with this quirk.

lana :llama:

ps--His idea of withholding your pc privs for 2 weeks would definitely be a deterrent for me. Also he might try a different implement than a hairbrush like a bb or a cane for something that serious. (I hope something works to stop you-- like maybe you have to write an essay entitled "Why texting while driving is very dangerous")


Thanks lana - that's really helpful. Can you tell me what a bb is? I've never heard of it. I will really need to get him to read this board even just to know the basic theory behind spanking. Mostly I have told him the facts on implements but he goes off his instincts quite a lot which aren't entirely correct (he shies away from using a belt on me but has suggested a leather whip, which is beyond my hard limits, and a cane, which I tell him is a much more severe implement than it looks, but he keeps forgetting and going back to his original impression). Because he asks me to rate the pain out of ten, and so far no implement we've tried has been more painful than the hairbrush, he thinks there is no point using them. But I don't think they are worthless just because they offer less of an initial sting, and switching implements appears to be really helpful. Lots of food for thought! I really don't mean to be critical of him, he is doing a great job as my chief :) this learning curve really does not hurt our relationship.

By the way lana, I read a short story of yours in the blogs (about a guy and 2 girls who live together in a dd relationship) it's great stuff! I particularly love your lecture model - it's rare that I find one that isn't either half-hearted or really patronising. Yours were just great :) hope you are still writing!
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Re: Consequences when you don't have consequences

Postby lana » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:06 pm

bb= wooden bath brush and it is by most subs' accounts, including mine, the worst of the implements in that it has the sting and the longer handle and the weight all concentrated into one small area. It is like a wooden paddle on steroids and I am almost sure you would not be texting or accepting calls from your car after a session with it.

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Re: Consequences when you don't have consequences

Postby artlover » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:59 pm

Why did he shy away from the belt? There are a lot of things to recommend the belt. It packs a lot of sting, you can use it to give a strapping of varying levels of severity, depending upon how hard and fast you apply it (you could, for example, use it lightly for warm up and then increase it as you go along). Belts vary a lot, and some are much more suited to light discipline, others heavy. Those that are narrower, for example, can pack a lot of sting, those that are wider and heavier, more impact. I have a belt that is very "broken in" and flexible, which my wife "got to know" somewhat, as you might say. I am sure there are many on this and other boards, who would view it as suitable for no more than a "good girl" or relational spanking. She has a low pain threshold, and it was quite enough for her.

Belts can add a significant emotional/psychological element. It is the "traditional" implement a man would use, so those who like the traditional, politically incorrect element of discipline might particularly like it. And if he uses the belt that he usually wears, you will see it on him all the time, a constant reminder of ttwd. And of course, the moment where he unthreads it from his pants prior to using it, adds an element of ceremony that you may find very nice (or at least, effective). Unthreading the belt, and then waiting for the bottom to undress to receive it, makes for a nice penultimate lead up to the strapping. These kind of scenes show up in a lot of spanking fantasy stories for a reason.

Of course, you have to be careful applying it so it does not wrap and reach areas you don't want it to. But the wrapping part can work for you if you use it to reach areas you want (having it wrap around the thigh, for example).

Sigh! I wish I had more experience using belts, as I find the idea extremely appealing. But we only used the belt a few times. For most of when we did discipline, it was hand spanking only. Implements scared my wife, and not in a good way. I did not mind too much, as I could hand spank her longer than I could use a belt, unless I went pretty lightly with it.
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Re: Consequences when you don't have consequences

Postby splorange » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:14 am

I agree, artlover. My chief follows his instincts a lot with regard to spanking technique and implements. I should really find him a good go-to website that breaks down several instruments so that he has an unbiased view. I know that a belt is an implement with a lot of range and flexibility, but he has the impression that it's too severe. I have told him otherwise, but he tends to forget things I've said unless it really makes an effect on him, and for whatever reason he doesn't have a positive mental association with belts. I have just bought a new leather paddle that he's excited to try out so I think this would be a stepping stone to using a belt. And thanks, lana - a bath brush sounds a good idea to graduate to.
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Re: Consequences when you don't have consequences

Postby JigsawAnalogy » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:14 am

A brief detour to the texting-while-driving issue: have you tried audio books or something like NPR's "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me"? (Not necessarily that show, but something that engages your brain with questions, and is a little more interactive than just listening to music.)

And with the withholding spankings issue, I think other posters are spot-on in talking about the closeness that comes from a spanking. I pretty much don't break rules any more (they're simple rules, and I don't feel an urge to break them). (Okay, and I don't break them because I know W will follow through with the punishment, and I really don't want to be punished for something I could avoid by following the rules.) I think that if we were trying to help me establish a new habit, or break an old one, I would almost certainly be getting punishment spankings for quite a while while I worked to change the behavior. The only reason I can manage to follow my rules now is that they're pretty much the same ones I've had for the past six years, and I've gotten a lot of practice with them.

But if I go for too long without a spanking, I get to a place where my attitude shows that I need one. It's hard to describe, because I don't think I even push that much. It's just a little bit of tone or body language that shows both me and W that I need a little more authority established. This is what works for us.
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Re: Consequences when you don't have consequences

Postby artlover » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:17 pm

splorange wrote:I agree, artlover. My chief follows his instincts a lot with regard to spanking technique and implements. I should really find him a good go-to website that breaks down several instruments so that he has an unbiased view. I know that a belt is an implement with a lot of range and flexibility, but he has the impression that it's too severe. I have told him otherwise, but he tends to forget things I've said unless it really makes an effect on him, and for whatever reason he doesn't have a positive mental association with belts. I have just bought a new leather paddle that he's excited to try out so I think this would be a stepping stone to using a belt. And thanks, lana - a bath brush sounds a good idea to graduate to.


Well, IMO, a belt is really just a leather strap that doubles as a regular article of clothing. Its particular fascination arises from the psychological aspects of it I alluded to.

So you could always order a strap of some sort.

I have never used one, but some tawses seem to me pretty impressive implements. Adding more sting and less thud would probably do the trick respecting avoiding the bruising that comes from a hairbrush.

Now, a bathbrush idea, whoa! I see that as only for a bottom that can really take some punishment. I don't even fantasize about spanking my wife with one of those. Seems like over kill, something that fits in more on the "beating" end of the scale of spankings. Of course, one reads about bottoms who shrug off belts and straps and regular paddles and don't feel properly dealt with without a heavy cane or a bath brush. Shows how various people are in how they respond to discipline.
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Re: Consequences when you don't have consequences

Postby splorange » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:41 am

JigsawAnalogy wrote:A brief detour to the texting-while-driving issue: have you tried audio books or something like NPR's "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me"? (Not necessarily that show, but something that engages your brain with questions, and is a little more interactive than just listening to music.)

And with the withholding spankings issue, I think other posters are spot-on in talking about the closeness that comes from a spanking. I pretty much don't break rules any more (they're simple rules, and I don't feel an urge to break them). (Okay, and I don't break them because I know W will follow through with the punishment, and I really don't want to be punished for something I could avoid by following the rules.) I think that if we were trying to help me establish a new habit, or break an old one, I would almost certainly be getting punishment spankings for quite a while while I worked to change the behavior. The only reason I can manage to follow my rules now is that they're pretty much the same ones I've had for the past six years, and I've gotten a lot of practice with them.

But if I go for too long without a spanking, I get to a place where my attitude shows that I need one. It's hard to describe, because I don't think I even push that much. It's just a little bit of tone or body language that shows both me and W that I need a little more authority established. This is what works for us.


I mostly listen to talk radio which is interesting, they play the odd song but about once every 15 minutes or so. I'm just a little hyperactive unfortunately. I've been doing pretty well the last couple of days and while I can't quite break the habit of glancing across at the passenger seat to check if there are messages, I don't pick up the phone anymore so that's progress.

artlover wrote:
splorange wrote:I agree, artlover. My chief follows his instincts a lot with regard to spanking technique and implements. I should really find him a good go-to website that breaks down several instruments so that he has an unbiased view. I know that a belt is an implement with a lot of range and flexibility, but he has the impression that it's too severe. I have told him otherwise, but he tends to forget things I've said unless it really makes an effect on him, and for whatever reason he doesn't have a positive mental association with belts. I have just bought a new leather paddle that he's excited to try out so I think this would be a stepping stone to using a belt. And thanks, lana - a bath brush sounds a good idea to graduate to.


Well, IMO, a belt is really just a leather strap that doubles as a regular article of clothing. Its particular fascination arises from the psychological aspects of it I alluded to.

So you could always order a strap of some sort.

I have never used one, but some tawses seem to me pretty impressive implements. Adding more sting and less thud would probably do the trick respecting avoiding the bruising that comes from a hairbrush.

Now, a bathbrush idea, whoa! I see that as only for a bottom that can really take some punishment. I don't even fantasize about spanking my wife with one of those. Seems like over kill, something that fits in more on the "beating" end of the scale of spankings. Of course, one reads about bottoms who shrug off belts and straps and regular paddles and don't feel properly dealt with without a heavy cane or a bath brush. Shows how various people are in how they respond to discipline.


Well, I guess we'll try our new toy before any more ideas. What's good about a belt and a bath brush is they are inexpensive and useful objects outside of spanking, so if we were to get one and find it didn't work for us spanking wise, it's not as if we'd invested a lot of money into something that was now worthless. I think on the whole I respond more to 'sting' than 'thud' as it were. But there is a vast difference between my pain threshold at various times, so it's impossible for me to generalise.
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Re: Consequences when you don't have consequences

Postby lana » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:21 pm

Hi Splorange
The bathbrush is both sting and thud and of course as w any implement how hard it is applied is also a major factor. Generally i will only get the bb for some sort of crime that is very serious/dangerous and a habit he doesnt want to have happen anymore. Period.

ps--Thanks for the positive feedback on my short story in my blog site here, about PolyDD. I really like to hear feedback on my writing. Unfortunately one of the disadvantages of Word Press blogs is that there is no way that i know of.of knowing how many people have viewed your blog.
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