Dilemna

[Meg]

We have a situation here. O authorized me to post this, because she is stumped on this question.

Here is what happened. I snapped at her because of something at work. There is no question that I could have acted better ant that my snapping was out of line. I recognized it pretty quickly, and went to apologize, and accept discipline if O choose, saying, "I'm sorry, I snapped at you." Instead of either accepting my apology and/or imposing discipline, O said in a rather nasty tone, "You should be!" but did not impose any discipline. This has happened before...and pretty much, without fail, escalates me, and this time was no exception. We had a fight...and I started behaving even worse...and, so did she. My behavior was such that, if we just went by my actions, I should be disciplined pretty severely. On the other hand, it does not seem fair, because she was the one who handled things badly, provoking me to escalate...and she escalated as well...saying some pretty nasty things to me in response to the nasty things I said to her.

So here is the question:

1. Do I just get the discipline my original behavior warranted? Which has already happened, but did not make things any better...but they got worse, and I bratted during the punishment. That being said, I did tell her before she imposed the discipline that I wasn't in the space to accept it well, and what she was doing probably wouldn't be very effective (a rather mild spanking), and she imposed it anyways.

2. Do I get the discipline that my behavior deserved on its own merits, without consideration of what O said, did, or did not do? If so, why is is fair? If not, how do we get the dynamic back, without my feeling like I had to brat to get discipline.

Now, I do not think that I was originally bratting. I snapped about something that annoyed me that she did regarding work, and when she refused to either discipline me or accept my apology graciously, it made me very tense and nervous, which is why I escalated. But, it is close enough to bratting that this is what I feel like.

If this matters or helps, we both agree that we both handled things badly.

O is on the side of less discipline, and stopping at the discipline that was already imposed

I am on the side of the more severe discipline.

On the other hand, we both can see the other side, and I need to accept O's decision in the matter.

[FootballJunkie]

Well, as a bottom, I would be on the side of more severe discipline as well. In spite of how T handled things, if I responded poorly or behaved badly, I would feel that I needed it to be more severe, just so I felt like we were on a clean slate. I don't know how your dynamic with O is, but if Tory did that, I think I would just kindly point out to him that I would appreciate not being responded to like that and that if he wishes to discipline me, I will accept it. I would also probably note to him that him responding to me in a negative manner would probably make me more likely to brat. I definitely would be gentle in pointing this out to him (not trying to top from the bottom, but just get him to understand my perspective...because sometimes no matter how much you've mentioned a specific topic to your Top, they don't really understand until you're in that situation again).

I think that more discipline is fair because we are still responsible for our actions in spite of how our Top acts. We can choose to ignore, forgive, take a few minutes to recoup or get our stress/anger level down, etc. I also think that O could go middle of the road with this - for example, give you the punishment she would have originally. And then let you know that she's going to give you more for how you acted, but be less than what that behavior actually warrants because she realizes that she provoked you.

[Julia]

Oh Amethyst! I'm so sorry this has happened to you guys. Your story brings back some very unpleasant and difficult memories for me. I have SO been there before. And we handled the whole thing very badly at the time. That's another story, I know, but it did lead K and I to make a rule /agreement about apologies.

1. I don't apologise unless I'm sufficiently ready to accept, ignore or deflect any initial backlash from her. (Because she is human and I am asking her to push aside a lot of emotion on MY schedule.)
2. She doesn't ask for or demand an apology until she is pretty confident I'm calm enough to give one without freaking out. (Because she's dictating the timing when she does that and my submission can't be guaranteed on HER schedule.)

Generally, I will test the ground first! I offer her a cup of tea or something else unrelated to test her tone. If she snaps "Yes!" to a cup of tea, then I can be pretty sure she's not calm enough to address anything more significant! If she says, "That would be lovely, honey, thank you." then she's likely to get a cup of tea, an apology and a hairbrush all delivered at the same time!

On the basis of the agreement we have, I would unquestionably be in line for a pretty severe further punishment in your situation because by offering an apology I am owning the fault and accepting whatever backlash comes from her (if any) as part of that process. For us, if I walk into a room and apologise, I am expected to do it from a place that recognises my fault deeply enough that removes my right to self-defence (irrespective of whether K does or says something I consider to be a provocation - I just need to suck it up). I know that is tough and may seem unjust to some people, but it is our agreement and it works for us. If I'm still trying to justify myself, defend my attitude or otherwise fight with K, then I'm not ready to offer an apology as a starting point for a resolution - I'm offering an apology as the beginning of a new fight. And that isn't an apology in our house!

Obviously our rules don't apply in your situation, though. But even without that agreement in place, I would certainly say that further punishment would be in order (again, in our house) just because you feel the need for it. As long as K felt able to deliver it, her first concern is to make sure I get enough of a punishment when needed. She will always give too much rather than not enough. We have learned that 'not enough' leaves me tense, grouchy, dissatisfied, guilty or some other thing that leads to further difficulties rather than resolution. K might (only might) need a punishment too in the situation you described. Either way, the fact that you two are asking the question suggests (or at least it would for us) that the matter is not currently resolved and will just fester under the surface until you do something positive to resolve it.

Please sort this one out soon, lovelies. It's upsetting me just thinking about you both and the potential explosions that could continue to happen until you resolve it. This cycle was at the heart of the breakup of a 6 year relationship for me. It's hard even remembering that situation. I'd give everything I have to be able to apologise for that one.

Sending you lots of love and hugs and best wishes on this one.

[JigsawAnalogy]

I've been in your position more times than I like to think about, and much as I would want and need more discipline, we haven't ever figured out a way for that to work well for us. W doesn't feel comfortable punishing me for the same offense more than once, and, honestly, once a punishment has gone badly in one way or another, it's really hard for me to deal with a retake on it.

If it were my fantasy world, in which W can read my mind and instinctively respond to my emotional needs, I think the best thing would be to step away from the fight and cool off, and then have her establish authority in a way that was mostly unrelated to the original offense. For me, there would be too much tangled up in that original fight, and once it had escalated that far, there wouldn't be a good way of using discipline to resolve it. But at the same time, I would be craving a reset, something to demonstrate that she still loves me, and will take care of me--not in a nurturing too-soft way that will just set off my irritation, but in a way that reinforces her authority and re-balances our power dynamic.

So, a day or so later, if she came in and said, "We are going to re-balance our power. You get in the corner and wait for me" and then gave me a spanking just because--just because she was in charge, just because I need the reminder that she's in charge, just because clearly I need a firmer hand....

That might have happened once or twice, but usually not. So perhaps it wouldn't work (and it's also possible that I'm not being all that clear. I blame it on my eyes, which still aren't working.)

[Meg]

Thank you so much for your responses...and O has read them too. It is *so* good to know that we are not the only couple with these problems.

We did come to a resolution of a sorts...which will address this time, and hopefully prevent future incidents of this nature (or at least reduce their frequency and duration). I will be writing another post regarding our resolution....and, yes, it did involve further discipline.

If anyone else has thoughts or ideas, though....we would still appreciate them, though....as well as feedback on our resolution once I have time to post it.

[Meg]

[Julia]

SO glad you're working it out and finding your way through the maze!

Keep going....YOU CAN DO IT!!!

[JigsawAnalogy]

It sounds like a major relief! I'm glad you worked things out, but I'm sorry it was so hard on both of you. I know W hasn't been online much this week, and I don't know if RealHard has been around either, but I'm hoping Obsidian has gotten some support as well.

And you should be glad you don't have an office chair like my old one, which was made of hard wood (but with wheels, for mobility).

[FootballJunkie]

So glad you two got everything worked out...even though it sounds pretty painful on your end.

[Meg]

Thanks, Julia...you are really sweet. Your discussion of apologies was really, really helpful, in that it helped both of understand WHY the punishment was deserved, even though I tried to apologize. While we don't yet have a rule of the sort you described, it made sense to both of us that my botched apology didn't excuse my subsequent behavior for the reasons you set forth. O will more than likely be setting some sort of similar rule in our household...she liked yours *very* much, but there are some hitches with that for us...that I (with O's permission, of course) would like to pick your brain about (as well as the brains of anyone else who would like to chime in). I'll start a new thread within the next day or so, so it does not get mixed in with this.

JA...yes, it was a relief...and, while the punishment was painful (btw, not nice, giving ideas to other people's Tops...lol), and the fight preceding the punishment was much more painful, forgiveness after punishment is oh, so, pleasant and nice . Both of us are feeling really good right now, and our relationship is feeling really good too. Unfortunately, O tends not to vent, and I am pretty certain did not come on the board for herself...she *did* read the responses on this thread, and they helped her a lot, too, though. Thank you for your support of both of us through this. Oh...to return the favor for the chair idea ....O and I have done retakes, and actually, they are quite helpful....giving us both a "do over", so to speak. You and W may want to reconsider about that....logically, this doesn't sound like it will work, but it resets things nicely, and for whatever reason, the lasting pain from the spanking feels better and more ok if the punishment went well, even if it is a retake after a punishment that did not go well. In this case, it really wasn't a "do over" though...as I did quite a bit after the first spanking to earn what I got and more.

FJ....yes, the punishment was pretty painful (and still is, and more than likely, will be for a least another couple of days), it was much, much less painful than the fight and the bad energy between us. To be completely honest, if we were going solely by my behavior...well, it would have been quite fair for me to have gotten the twice daily spankings and punishment chair for a week rather than a day , but even though O actually agreed with that assessment, she felt that it was far better and more important to get it over within a day and to move to forgiveness for both of us.

[Dreamgirl]

[W-Jigsaw'sBoss]

I think for me, there's something about the "do-over" that makes me focus too much on how the first one didn't work, and doesn't well put me in a dominant headspace. Moving on and resetting the tone with a scene purely for establishing authority works more effectively, and then we can address the unresolved issue at hand.

The lesson I find difficult to really, really cement in my brain, is that when in doubt, MORE punishment, not LESS. I think in our time doing ttwd, J has had enough, really enough, maybe three times.

[Meg]

[JigsawAnalogy]

[TryingReallyHard]

Thank you guys all for chiming in. This is a great thread!! Julia, I appreciate you detailing your rules like that, they are definitely something to think on...