please and thank you

[pinecone]

I have been feeling very impolite. Not ACTING very impolite, but feeling it. And maybe acting it just a little. But not in any really explicit or punishable ways. I know I could be treating D with more respect, but I'm also not breaking any rules. Which makes me think, maybe we need some NEW rules- a way of defining what polite, respectful behavior looks like, and a way of seeing that I do it.

How do you guys define respectful, polite behavior for a bottom? Do you have rules about saying "please" and "thank you"? I don't know why this only just occurred to me! I hardly EVER say those words, and I am guessing D doesn't notice either. What other basic manners are there that I might be missing- which do you enforce, and how?

[Eayore]

In my case, P knows exactly when I am being respectful or disrespectful, and her decision is final! We don't have rules for what constitutes being polite. I think it is much too easy for me to use words like "please" and "thank you" in a sarcastic, disrespectul manner (unfortunately).

[pinecone]

Ha ha! I hadn't thought of that possibility, although yeah- I'll bet I could resort to sarcasm too. I think I'd get in hot water pretty quick that way though.

I think it makes sense that P knows you so well that she knows when you're being disrespectful and when that warrants discipline... I think our problem is that *I* have *my* ideas about when I'm being disrespectful, and then *he* has *his* ideas about when I'm being disrespectful... and I'm not sure if they're the same! Plus, he feels uncomfortable punishing me for anything we haven't specifically worked out and agreed upon to the last letter- I think because he's not comfortable yet asserting his authority to such a great extent.

[JigsawAnalogy]

[W-Jigsaw'sBoss]

As a top, one thing that really helped me with the times when asserting my authority felt, for lack of a better word, arbitrary, was the Spanking Generator. When I knew J needed it but I wasn't really able to muster the authority within myself, I was able to use it to make the decisions for me, and it was understood that we would follow it. When I started adapting what it said to suit the situation, I realized I didn't need it anymore, although I may resurrect it for these times lately when I know we need to get back on track but I'm not sure HOW.

[carelijon]

For us, we dont exactly have rules about using please and thank you, but my HOH knows that I typically do say "please, thank you, yes, Sir, no, Ma'am" because of my background in martial arts. So, therefore, he knows that, for me, if I don't call someone Sir or Ma'am, I am being disrespectful. But, I think if my normal level of respect was lower, he wouldn't be concerned.

For example, there is this one boy at work who aggravates me, and sometimes I don't say Sir to him, probably because I don't have any respect for him. My HOH gets upset because he feels (and I agree) that I'm showing this person less respect that I would anyone else, and that's not nice. But at the same time, I don't say Sir to my dad, because he doesn't like that, so my HOH has no problem with me not calling him Sir.

Anyway, my point was that I don't necessarily think it is disrespectful not to say please and thank you, if that's not what you normally do.

Another comparison would be this- I have a 9 year old and a 5 year old. My 9 year old really struggles in school. She gets "good job awards" (our rewards system for the kids) when she gets Bs. My 5 year old just finished PK with top averages and perfect attendance. He gets the same rewards for higher grades. Our standard isn't the same for them.

[Desperate4Discipline]

Pinecone,

Great topic! I will be watching this thread closely!! Thank you!

[pinecone]

Thanks for your feedback. I think neither D nor I really want to mess around with a long list of exacting rules. The Spanking generator sounds awesome, but we have macs and it's not compatible. Well, we are trying to create a new system that is less subjective, and which I hope will be useful in the same way as W's generator. Maybe some kind of chart, like the ones parents use for kids.

I would love to be able to evaluate my own behavior, since only I know whether I FEEL polite. But I am thinking that might be more of a self-awareness thing rather than an external (D-enforced) discipline thing. Now that I think about it, it is probably simply part of my end of the relationship to be respectful and courteous. It is kind of funny that I never worried about it until we introduced discipline and the top/bottom roles, but I guess that's a case of TTWD helping to support the basic foundations of a good relationship (top/bottom or otherwise).

[JigsawAnalogy]

[PrttyinPnk]

W - my honey uses the generator when he is feeling tired or its been a long day and he doesn't have it in him to figure out a fitting discipline.

That said, he keeps hitting the button to get it to generate until he finds one he likes. Somehow, that feels like cheating to me. Its like playing a game and you roll the dice and insist on getting a second chance when you don't like the roll. Of course, I probably feel that way because he usually thinks it is too easy on me.

In our house, respect is difficult for us to pin down. I have a mouth on me...My sense of humor is very sarcastic and mocking in general. If I make him laugh, I often get away with it. But when I turn my humor against HIM he gets very toppish very fast.

I think its really hard for me to respond respectfully when I feel like he is ordering me about. I feel very defensive and I have a tendency to say "yes sir" sarcastically. And then I'm always in trouble. I don't have to say please and thank you, except for specific situations. He'll prompt me if he wants it. He has much better manners than me.

[JigsawAnalogy]

Does he know how to edit the options the generator has for punishments and the severity of punishments?

[PrttyinPnk]

Lol...yes! He is just OCD so he tends to fixate on finding the "perfect" amount of discipline. Plus, we're pretty new to using it. We just started last week.

[pinecone]

I just wanted to let you know that thanks to your suggestion JA, I am writing a journal entry every evening. It is absolutely amazing. I can say what I want in there without having to worry if it sounds polite or subordinate, and getting it all out on the page frees me up to be more polite and subordinate in real life. It also helps me work through difficult issues,especially with feelings of rebelliousness and frustration with our dynamic. I usually end up feeling pretty contrite at the end of writing an entry, and able to come to D refreshed and better-behaved. He reads them every couple of days and says that he learns a lot from the entries about what's working and what he might be able to do better. Usually after he reads my journal we have a conversation about how we both are feeling about recent events.

Actually it has been working so well that D now enforces a rule that I need to write every day and list what, in my opinion, I've done wrong and how I feel about it.

Thanks, JA!

[JigsawAnalogy]

I'm very glad it helped!

[Eayore]

That sounds wonderful, pinecone!