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This thing we do • View topic - Refusing to take a punishment

Refusing to take a punishment

SpankoNanny, WE NEED YOUR HELP!

Here's a section for those questions about discipline. In this case, we're *all* able to stand in for SpankoNanny, and we are all free to ask questions. Got a problem in your household? Check in to see what our good friend (but our firm, strict, caring friend) SpankoNanny has to say.

Refusing to take a punishment

Postby blackbird » Mon May 28, 2012 1:24 am

Something happened yesterday whilst we were out that T wanted to spank me for later on. He had been getting a bit lazy about timings and sticking to what he had planned anyway, but this revolved around his area of weakness in the world, being unassertive. I took up the reins (it was asking for a table in a restaurant when we were told it was fully booked at the bar) as we were meeting people. I know he wouldn't have coped very well and we would have likely ended up traipsing around trying to find somewhere else. Or I firmly believed it... or actually, I couldn't cope with it the thought of it, wandering in hot sun at lunchtime will people I hardly know. Later as I was standing in the corner after being spanked I let out how upset I felt at him not taking control in the situation. He said I acted like a bully (a posh one - he comes from working class roots), which I didn't, I just went and charmed the maitre'd into giving us a table - but it was all very stressful.

This morning I have to face his demands for the day. And they will be hard I think. Either that or he will have crumpled. I was just wondering what others have done in similar situations and whether or not to go with the assertive side of me that got things sorted or the submissive side that doesn't want to undermine T, but at the same time feels desperately disappointed that he didn't take charge.
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars"

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Re: Refusing to take a punishment

Postby splorange » Mon May 28, 2012 3:56 am

You may be used to him being the strong one. But you have your own strength as well. And there will be times when you are stronger than him, as obviously this is an area where he feels out of his depth. It can be a balancing act between your assertion and your submission, but I really believe we need both sides of us. I'm sure you will negotiate this later in your relationship, but all couples have aspects of life where one relies on the other. You don't have to be disappointed in T, that this time he needed you.

The body of your post doesn't elaborate further on the title - do you want to refuse later punishments because of this? Or do you think that you refused the punishment yesterday because you told him you were disppointed in him? It's ok to feel that, blackbird. We're never going to be 100% satisfied with everything our tops do, and it's between you and T how you share your discontent, but there should be an avenue through which this is possible.

This is probably a deep-rooted issue with T, and as such will take a bit more working through, but here are my thoughts on how I would resolve it.

Tops can't be perfect.

Tops don't have to be perfect.

Tops would, in an ideal world, recognise their imperfections and create structure to deal with them (eg. he might get you to make reservations for future lunch plans). But this can't be done all at once.

Bottoms can disobey without damaging the fabric of the relationship - it was probably better that you upset him and he was able to punish you for it, that if you had allowed the situation to escalate and walked from restaurant to restaurant, which would have made you very stressed and without a means of expressing that.

When it comes to being punished when we think we are in the right, it depends. I think theoretically we are allowed to refuse those punishments. It depends on the individual relationship. For me however, I see it as a special gift bottoms have the power to give their tops, that we can let them punish if it helps them deal with their own fragilities. This probably only works if we have the right of refusal, and maybe some don't in their relationship. But without it, a spanking is an unfair punishment whereby the top is just taking out their frustration on an innocent victim. With it, the bottom chooses to suffer *with* the top, so that the top can work through some of their negative energy by spanking.

You told me that this side of us (submissives) is very young. Yes it is. But other parts of us are adults. I think it's possible to feel regret for disobeying T, but not for securing a lunch table, and to be disappointed in him for not taking charge, but still to recognise his weakness and love and forgive him for it. And then to decide whether or not to accept a punishment and if you do, what category to mentally file it under.

Please let us know how things pan out, and I'm thinking of you both.
'I had made the mistake of powering up my consciousness without having the appropriate scaffolding in place'

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Re: Refusing to take a punishment

Postby blackbird » Mon May 28, 2012 8:21 am

"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars"

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Re: Refusing to take a punishment

Postby lana » Tue May 29, 2012 5:39 am

Hi Blackbird

I disagree completely with S. Without meaning to, what you did was to undermine your hoh at the restaurant when you jumped in to handle it yourself. To put it plainly, either you are in charge or he is. If it was his desire for you to handle it, he would have told you to. Instead you jumped in and used your "posh accent" to intimidate the waiter and prolly causing your hoh to feel disrespected and disempowered. Yes you got your table but at the expense of undermining his authority --which you say you are trying to encourage.

Your (or Sporange's) excuse was that you would have really blown up at him if he hadnt handled it the way you wanted it done and you hadnt got the table. Sorry-- thats no excuse. Hes the boss and its totally up to him if he preferred to find another restaurant rather than to be pushy with or bully a waiter. As your HOH, he is under no obligation to meet your expectation of what you think a take-charge man should do.

Sorry but I think you earned that spanking, And maybe more later for arguing about it while you were in the corner. Its not always easy to be submissive. If trucking around in the heat with some other people was a more honorable solution in his eyes than being pushy with a waiter--then it was your role to support his decision and to do it with humor and grace-- and without throwing a sissy fit.

JMO
lana :llama:

psDearest Blackbird, no one said it is your job to control everything and make everything go perfect. If you think you have to, you will always feel stressed out since its an impossibility. But I do sincerely congratulate you for your courage in asking yourself why you do this and why it is you stress over things instead of just relaxing and going with the flow letting your HOH take the lead. ;)
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Re: Refusing to take a punishment

Postby blackbird » Tue May 29, 2012 7:54 am

Thanks for your bracing response lana! Although I didn't intimidate anyone with my posh accent... I was rather timid actually - but that's not the point. I guess it's going to take me a long time to get to your stage of submission. Going with the flow has never been a strong point with me.

You are quite right that T should have had the say-so in the situation. It's what he told me too. It's just that he doesn't fully understand his retreat from dominance as yet and it was an occasion in the restaurant where he thought he was exerting control and was actually being very nervous and uncertain in my eyes. I find it impossible to cope being submissive to him when he acts like that. He rightly accused me of seeing him as a wimp. Actually, he was quite prepared to go and tackle the situation he says, but that's not the vibe he gave off at all to me. In our discussions (very upset ones) since then, he has taken on board that his "I am expecting the world to walk all over me" bottom line stance is a defence, not a strong position to take in the outer world - and particularly when in a D/s relationship.

I disagree with you on a very moot point. I don't think submission to someone's woundedness is healthy. It is not alright with me that I have to submit to the parts of T that he is not aware of. That's supposing I'm right about the way it went, which is always in question. It's tricky this, because a lot of the good in ttwd comes from me submitting whatever the weather. But there are some times when I can't, and it's always an opportunity for self-examination and a challenge to be honest with each other.

Work in progress.....
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Re: Refusing to take a punishment

Postby jessewj » Tue May 29, 2012 1:18 pm

I agree with splorange's statement that there are aspects in both Tops' and Bottoms' lives where they are not completely submissive or dominant. For me, I don't mind doing things like asking for tables or asking people in movie theatres if they mind moving over one seat so my friends and I can sit together. But if Bee did it instead of me, I wouldn't feel my authority was undermined at all - she's her own person and she's a big girl despite her being my Brat. She can do things on her own. There are areas of our life where I am undeniably her dominant but in a situation like that? It's not necessarily the 'man's' or the 'Top's' job to get a table in a restaurant or not.
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Re: Refusing to take a punishment

Postby lana » Tue May 29, 2012 3:33 pm

I can only say that with my late husband T who was very decisive and dominant, it would never have occurred to me to do such a thing as intervene to get a table. He normally handledl all such interactions and he always went to the side of causing the least embarrassment and discomfort to the employees. Sometimes it really bugged me when he would get a steak that was overdone but he hadnt returned it (he didnt want to cause a scene or cause the the other guests to have to wait while he had another steak cooked. ) Although I totally disagreed with him , it would never in a million years have occured to me to jump in and say (no matter how quietly) "Wait my husband ordered med rare!." or to use charm or any means to try to get a table .

T never had any problem tho with assertiveness whatsoever. Just he had (in my eyes) an extreme horror of causing a scene or making any employee feel put down or possibly ruining the party's atmosphere by complaining of anything..

My present hoh likes for me to handle finances and anything to do with math, so he has delegated these things to me so i do get what jessew says about her SO being the one to do things when it is appropriate instead of always going with the gender or dom/sub roles. So I do get that-- but I still think tho that sometimes the control-issue partner never even gives her hoh the chance to take control cause she has to handle things her way, like in Bbs case where it was clearly not a welcome thing to him what she did.

Now if he said, he wanted her to handle it, fine. Like "Hon, see if you can talk the waiter into getting us a table" thats fine too. If he wants and asks for help from his/her SO in knowing when to be being more assertive in public , thats cool too. Everybody s got to work out what works out for them best.
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Re: Refusing to take a punishment

Postby Eayore » Tue May 29, 2012 9:23 pm

Blackbird, I love the insight you express about yourself and your relationship in this thread. I find it a privilege to read. I surely would not say what you need was too extreme for this forum.

I can't help thinking that "the wrong person" got spanked and sent to the corner in this particular incident - but clearly that would be transferring things from my own relationship, which don't belong in yours!

I have a sense that both of you can benefit from this by letting it expand your respective 'comfort zones'. Perhaps T can continue to be more assertive. In your case, it feels a little harder to pinpoint, but I think it may be about choosing not to fight for your own interests, or rather not feeling that you have to do so. Does that make sense to you?
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Re: Refusing to take a punishment

Postby blackbird » Wed May 30, 2012 1:43 am

"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars"

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Re: Refusing to take a punishment

Postby splorange » Wed May 30, 2012 1:55 pm

Thank you for this insight into your life and relationship blackbird. It's so potent how one's childhood affects your adult self, and I'm sure I speak for many of us when I congratulate you on working through these difficult things. I'm happy you've said T is going to try to work on this himself - as well as you working on things that are tricky for you.

I wonder whether you (and others here) are familiar with Elaine Aron's work on Highly Sensitive People? It's just because, what you said about not being able to stand the thought of wandering around in the heat getting hungrier, as well as other things you've said, really make me think that you may be a HSP. As one myself, I imagined exactly what I would be like in that position - angry and stressed!! Understanding my trait, my boyfriend doesn't punish me for outbursts caused by over arousal. But if I feel I've been unfair to him I will ask for a spanking when I've cooled off.

Lana - thank you for your viewpoint - it's so diametrically opposed to my own that I'm going to spend most of the evening going over the two. And thus we find a deeper truth. I think the point I have been trying to reach is one where I will genuinely put my chief's wishes ahead of my own, instead of the back and forth, compromise situation I'm favouring at the moment. That was one of my biggest reasons for wanting to try TTWD - that I would be kind and forebearing, even when I thought I knew better than him. A long hard road though!
'I had made the mistake of powering up my consciousness without having the appropriate scaffolding in place'

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Re: Refusing to take a punishment

Postby lana » Wed May 30, 2012 5:55 pm

Most of the things that have happened bad to me in life, while seeming very irksome & hard to bear at the time, looking back later I remember those times fondly now with laughter and I was glad I supported my hoh in what he chose to do* even when i disagreed with it at the time. It was the obstacles we overcame together as a team that give me the most satisfaction. I can imagine in Bbs case saying to my hoh "Remember the time we were all starving and wondering around town in the heat trying to find a restaurant and I was about to strangle you?"And him saying "Yeah, i figured you were getting a little po'd-- but thats how we found the other place we like so much now"

As for what splorange said, we (me and gman) dont do it that way. If I am under stress and a bit snappy thats okay but if I go too far and blow up at my hoh, slamming dishes or cursing at him or loud voice or refuse to answer him(which is not very often) I am spanked right on the spot if we're at home or asap afterwards. (For some reason when im in this particular raging mood, a warning alone doesnt work that well.) No rituals, no warmup, pants down over the couch arm or OTK. with whatever implement comes to hand first from the shelf.
This hurts a lot and i hate it and begging it to stop; --but after the howling and struggling and apologizing, and he finallystops spanking, it usually works and all the stress is gone and im feeling very submissive and close and sorry for how i acted. Like a weight of worry lifted. Im sure it wouldn t work this way for most people, but it does for me.
His saying is "Its okay to have feelings but not okay to act out on them." which I agree with entirely in theory but of course no one is perfect all the time.
lana :llama:

*(Not that that means T didnt appreciate my advice on things and often followed it. T was open to criticism but still made the final decisions)
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Re: Refusing to take a punishment

Postby Eayore » Wed May 30, 2012 7:54 pm

lana, thanks for explaining.

I think if I had a top who was willing to do what gman does, then a lot of disagreements and hard feelings would be quickly resolved between us, and I imagine we'd have many happy memories just as you describe!

I also get that it would not seem like any fun at all to be spanked this way while it is happening, but would feel worth it afterwards.
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Re: Refusing to take a punishment

Postby blackbird » Thu May 31, 2012 1:15 am

This has turned into such an interesting discussion - I'm so glad.

Lana, I really love the 'instant punishment' part of what you describe. I think that would help me no end if T did that more - and I find it really sexy to think about that control. And as for the fond memories bit, I read it so wistfully. My version of a "bit po'd" would be so extreme that it would cut out any possibility of enjoying the "the place we like so much now". And I fear I would have embarassed myself by showing my misery to the others. I think that's why so many of my (and T's) spanking fantasies revolve around spanking me in public - at a picnic, or dinner party... :blush:

So yes, Splorange, I am indeed an HSP.

Does anyone else link their sexual fantasies to what they need in reality? I don't mean necessarily in reality (insert a hot and cold blushing smilie here!!!), but certainly emotionally. I find as they change they give both me and T such an indication of how much ttwd is working.
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Re: Refusing to take a punishment

Postby splorange » Thu May 31, 2012 4:27 pm

'I had made the mistake of powering up my consciousness without having the appropriate scaffolding in place'

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Re: Refusing to take a punishment

Postby Eayore » Thu May 31, 2012 6:14 pm

Pretty well all my sexual fantasies start with my needing to be punished, and proceed from there. Is that what you meant?
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