Rules/Structure Regarding Apologies

Perhaps your household works without a structure. Go you. The rest of us mortals need to figure out how this thing works. This is a spot for talking about how we create the structure of our various domestic arrangements.

Rules/Structure Regarding Apologies

Postby Meg » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:24 pm

In the NannyJo thread, Julia talked about her rules/agreement regarding apologies.

.... it did lead K and I to make a rule /agreement about apologies.

1. I don't apologise unless I'm sufficiently ready to accept, ignore or deflect any initial backlash from her. (Because she is human and I am asking her to push aside a lot of emotion on MY schedule.)
2. She doesn't ask for or demand an apology until she is pretty confident I'm calm enough to give one without freaking out. (Because she's dictating the timing when she does that and my submission can't be guaranteed on HER schedule.)

Generally, I will test the ground first! I offer her a cup of tea or something else unrelated to test her tone. If she snaps "Yes!" to a cup of tea, then I can be pretty sure she's not calm enough to address anything more significant! If she says, "That would be lovely, honey, thank you." then she's likely to get a cup of tea, an apology and a hairbrush all delivered at the same time!

On the basis of the agreement we have, I would unquestionably be in line for a pretty severe further punishment in your situation because by offering an apology I am owning the fault and accepting whatever backlash comes from her (if any) as part of that process. For us, if I walk into a room and apologise, I am expected to do it from a place that recognises my fault deeply enough that removes my right to self-defence (irrespective of whether K does or says something I consider to be a provocation - I just need to suck it up). I know that is tough and may seem unjust to some people, but it is our agreement and it works for us. If I'm still trying to justify myself, defend my attitude or otherwise fight with K, then I'm not ready to offer an apology as a starting point for a resolution - I'm offering an apology as the beginning of a new fight. And that isn't an apology in our house!


O is going to institute a rule around apologies, and she liked yours, Julia, so much, she wanted to institute them pretty much verbatim. I agree that this rule makes a whole lot of sense in situations where I have genuinely done something wrong or against the rules, and I am offering an apology and submitting to any discipline that O deems fit for this.

On the other hand, there is another type of apology that is problematic in our household. I have a terrible problem regarding guilt...that still remains after years of therapy, 12 step groups, pastoral care, etc. It *is* much better than it used to be...actually, I think from gaining maturity, and from ttwd to a certain extent. One of the vestiges of this is that I tend to apologize when I have not really done anything wrong...often, if I think that O is mad at me...or mad about anything...even things that have nothing to do with me...I will, almost out of habit, start apologizing. This habit *really* annoys O, always has. She has done things like when I am apologizing, making me tell her what I think that I am apologizing for, and if there is nothing, then telling me that I shouldn't be apologizing. Often, though, this turns into the ridiculous situation in which I am apologizing for apologizing :facepalm:

The other time I apologize is when I am freaking out with verbal reprimands...and spill into repeated..."I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry." When I do that, I am not really apologizing about anything specific...but am freaking out and trying to stop the reprimand. Unfortunately, this tends to inflame O (the "drop of blood in the shark tank" analogy)...which, well, is not good, and is the last thing I need in those moments.

We really haven't applied ttwd to these situations, but if there is a rule about apologies, it would probably be good to cover those situations as well.

Do you, Julia, or anyone else, have any ideas for rules/agreements to address these things? One of the things that I have noticed about myself, is that I do much better in being able to comply with rules, if I have a positive action to take instead of the negative one that I am being disciplined for. For example, bratting if I need a spanking is bad, but I am allowed to ask politely and submissively for a spanking if I need one.
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Re: Rules/Structure Regarding Apologies

Postby Julia » Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:42 am

This will have to be quick - so sorry!

We have had something similar to deal with (although not so intensive as your situation I think). We made a distinction between "I'm sorry, I'm sorry" repetitions and the more considered and deliberate, "I owe you an apology". I know it may seem like semantics but when we looked at our conversations, it was the language that seemed to distinguish one from the other. I can say 'sorry' all day and, whilst I mean it, it doesn't turn my stomach.

I can say it to someone I bump into on the street or to a customer when we have a miscommunication or to a child I trip over in the mall......etc etc etc. On the other hand, "I owe you an apology" means, I have thought about this, weighed my behaviour in the balance and found myself wanting! (to borrow a Biblical phrase!) It comes from a place of deep meaning and often makes me feel sick in the pit of my stomach when I have to say it. I have never told anyone, "I owe you an apology" without my face burning and often my palms going cold and clammy. I hate having to say it with a passion because it means (in my mind) that I have nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. :blush: Do you have any kind of distinction like that in your language or context?

I have no solutions for your (and my) tendency to say sorry too often and at the wrong times though - if you find one, please let me know!
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Re: Rules/Structure Regarding Apologies

Postby Meg » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:37 am

Thanks, Julia...yes, I do see the difference, and what you say makes a lot of sense.

It also makes sense that how and when I deliver real apologies and offer myself for discipline is a *much* higher priority than the inappropriate apologies. The latter may be annoying, but they are unlikely to explode into the terrible fights....unlike the former.
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Re: Rules/Structure Regarding Apologies

Postby Julia » Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:06 pm

Sorry I had to be brief before - I was ruxhing out to pay the rent and there would have been hell to pay if I'd been late for that! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm not sure if it's a cultural thing or whether it's specific to me and most of my middle-aged English friends, but I do think there is something to be said for using a degree of formality in these situations. I'm thinking about the sorry vs apology situation and the way it might play out with us and I think the main difference is formality. "Sorry" is casual; "I owe you an apology" is formal. That much we have already agreed in principle even if not in so many words.

OK, what I'm going to tell you now is kinda personal. I'm saying that not because I mind sharing it but because it is probably not going to translate to your situation directly. This is how things worked for me in ONE past relationship. There are other ways forward that can be tailored to your partners and situations.

Alright......DEEP BREATH!.........

I was with a girl who had an Eastern background. She had such a fine sensibility when it came to formality that even my English level of formal was embarrassingly sloppy to her. Eventually - and I do mean eventually - we worked out a sort of ceremonial apology system. I had to shower and dress relatively formally (skirt and blouse for example) then knock on the door of the room she was in and wait for her to say "come in". I would enter and bow (sort of Japanese style) then say, "I want to offer an apology for.....XYZ thing". She would say, "Proceed." Then I'd explain what I had done and how I felt about it finishing with, "i deeply regret my actions/attitude and request your judgment on the matter.". She'd say, "I accept your apology and will consider a proper punishment for you. Now go and [stand in the corner] or [make dinner] or [wait for me in the bedroom] or whatever." I would bow again, say "Thank you, ma'am" and go to comply.

What this does is sets up a situation where I had to have got my head into the right place to offer the apology. I then had to do positive, active things to reinforce my own readiness and get my head into the submissive space it needed to be in (showering, dressing, knocking). It gave her some cues about what might be going on as she heard me showering and dressing (often at an unusual time of day like lunch time!). When I knocked on the door - something I would NEVER otherwise do - she could leave me standing there for half an hour if she felt like it. She never did, but she could have if she was not ready to hear me. This gave her time alone - in full awareness of what was coming - to decide how she might respond. By the time I had showered, dried my hair and changed, she was pretty sure I was in a submissive enough mood to accept her authority so she was more confident in exercising it. She said that when I came into the room and bowed to her, she could not resist seeing my submission and responding to it properly. Then my having time to articulate the reason for my apology made it clear to her that I knew what I had done that was wrong and how well or badly I was taking it. Consequently, her response to it was easier to evaluate. She had time to think about what to do and the right to decide when to do it, which she said made her more confident again.

On some occasions we talked things through and she would instigate the whole scene by saying, "I think you should prepare to apologise properly, don't you?" And I would go get ready....etc, etc, etc.

The thing about this is that the formality of a rehearsed and familiar scene often helped me (and her) to put emotion aside and act within the constraints of a rehearsed protocol. You might need something less formal. Most western people would find the scene I have described totally alien. To me it represents a combination of terror and total serenity all bundled up together. It didn't always feel that way!

I hope something here can give someone an idea about the value of formality in apologies rather than just making everyone think I'm a freak! You know what they say - don't knock it till you've tried it! :)
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Re: Rules/Structure Regarding Apologies

Postby Meg » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:23 pm

Wow...that is quite a system, Julia. There is quite a value in formality, I agree. I particularly like the structure around giving time to each partner...although...I do not know how I would handle all of the waiting...my mind would be racing, my heart would be pounding, and my palms would be sweating, but that was probably part of the idea :).

O is not all that into formality...and I do not know that she could get through that type of ritual without laughing, because it is not really her. Both of us are Midwestern USA down to the very core, both having lived in the Chicagoland area all of our lives (although now, we live in NW Indiana...which is still pretty close to Chicago). You know, Chicago, where the former Illinois Governor, Rod Blagojevich, was from...of "'bleepin' golden" fame...oy!. Though, O does appreciate propriety in others, but I still do not think that she could pull it off. Who knows, though...she often surprises me...:).

We *do* though have a bedtime ritual now, which has replaced weekly maintenance. A half an hour before bedtime, I have to report to a particular spot in the bedroom facing her spot on the bed with my bottom bare, or as bared as possible during certain times of the month, and wait for her. We call it my daily reckoning. During that time, I have to report how my day was. Most of the things, she already knows, as we spend most of the day together right now, but sometimes, I have something to confess or there was something that she did not catch during the day. If I received any discipline during the day, or did something that would have been worthy of discipline, and for whatever reason, discipline did not occur, I will get a "bedtime spanking," of varying intensity based on the nature and amount of offenses that day. If I was good, and there were no "issues" she will rub my bottom instead, and tell me I was a good girl. I wonder...out loud...if formal apologies could be incorporated into that ritual, if warranted. Actually, they already kind of are...as I often apologize when confessing my offenses during that time...hmmm.
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Re: Rules/Structure Regarding Apologies

Postby Julia » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:04 am

Hi Amethyst.

I did try to say this system won't be for everyone! :blush: I would never suggest westerners follow this kind of ritual to the letter. It took me years to get comfortable with it - well comfortable-ISH! I was just trying to illustrate how *some* kind of ritual or formal process can give both parties a bit of breathing space when things get difficult. When we were 'winging it', shouting at one another, getting sarcastic or cutting with one another, going silent and doing the passive aggressive thing or just generally not functioning well, we had a formal procedure we could resort to. It gave us both space and allowed us both to restrain our emotional reactions within a recognizable framework of behaviour. We both had to subscribe to it and I think the fact that it was regarded as a sort of 'rule that was bigger than both of us' it provided security on both sides.

If I'm honest, what you describe above as your bedtime ritual would be the world's worst nightmare for me. I would feel like I was finishing every day focusing on my failure and having to do it every night would terrify me - I know I'd be setting myself up to fail because I can't do TTWD that consistently. From K's point of view she would see that as pretty demanding too - especially since we're both pretty tired by bedtime and not always at our best emotionally. It's whatever works for individuals though I suppose.

I know some people don't do formality well - that's not critical, just simple fact. And I know that what I told you about our ritual is pretty extreme in the formality stakes! But honestly, that was a compromise! Based on my ex's background I should have been doing so much more to demonstrate my respect and submission - in her culture. (How scary is THAT!?!) And if I'm completely honest, at the start, I had a hard time not laughing! But that is just about the whole thing being so unfamiliar - utterly alien actually. When I saw how much confidence it gave her and how affirmed she became in her top role, I was so grateful that I was willing to do just about anything.

Some people find space and formality in corner time, in lines, in sexy underwear, in slave collars, in school/headmistress scenes - a million different things. All I was suggesting is that after a fight, some people might find it helpful to have something in place that can defuse the bomb. Something that both parties recognise as a procedure, scene or way of behaving that says clearly, "Enough! I deeply and genuinely want to resolve this thing, please."
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Re: Rules/Structure Regarding Apologies

Postby Meg » Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:52 am

Oh dear. While I like messages boards, and other electronic forms of communication, there is a big problem with them, in that it is *really* easy for mis-communications to occur, as there is no opportunity to read body language or tone of voice, and the time delay between responses can make it worse.

Julia, I, in no way, shape, or form had any intention to criticize or put down the ritual that you or your former partner shared, but I certainly can see if my response seemed to be one. I know that you were being very vulnerable in describing it, and I appreciate your doing so. My description of our own ritual was intended to be an acknowledgement of that and a way to reciprocate vulnerability by sharing something personal about *us*.

On another level, please understand that your help the other night was a Godsend and very greatly appreciated, so the absolute last thing that I would want to do would be to hurt, offend, or in any way, shape, or form do or say anything that would be upsetting to you. My first impulse, fittingly enough, would be to apologize preemptively, but as I am only assuming from the tone of your post that I have offended...and given the subject matter of this thread...I will defer doing so, because I might very well be misinterpreting your response, which would make an apology premature.

If I'm honest, what you describe above as your bedtime ritual would be the world's worst nightmare for me. I would feel like I was finishing every day focusing on my failure and having to do it every night would terrify me - I know I'd be setting myself up to fail because I can't do TTWD that consistently. From K's point of view she would see that as pretty demanding too - especially since we're both pretty tired by bedtime and not always at our best emotionally. It's whatever works for individuals though I suppose.


Oh goodness, it is not like that at all...especially, as most nights the ritual involves praise and affection, because most days there are no "issues". O much prefers to rub my bottom, and tell me that I am a good girl, which is generally what happens, then to spank me. Also, most of the time the ritual takes five to ten minutes at the most. One of the reasons we developed the ritual is that we have found that it is best for us to take care of problems as soon as possible...so they do not fester, but given that, often there is not time to deal with the issue adequately during the day....so, we can deal with it at the end of the day, when we have more time. We also both almost always know whether there will be spanking or reward during that time, so we are ready for it.

The other reason for the nightly ritual, is that nature of my work requires me to be assertive and to take control. When O first started working at my office, she mostly handled the business end, which did not require direction, supervision, or involvement on my end, which kept us equal professionally, and at many times, gave O authority over me. Unfortunately, due to the economy, I had to lay off everyone else in the office, so O and I both had to take over the functions that others handled, which does put me in the position of having to direct or supervise SOME of the things that O does...which can and does throw off the dynamic...so a nightly reset is pretty helpful, as whether it is praise or punishment, I am still in a submissive position. Another advantage to it, is that while I have a bedtime, O does not....but by the time we go to the bed, have our nightly ritual, say our prayers....O generally is ready to go to bed too, which is good, because it helps her get enough sleep as well, without her having to abide by a "bedtime".

Ah well...not sure what else to say...take care.
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Re: Rules/Structure Regarding Apologies

Postby Julia » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:48 am

Ooops! Yup, the tone and communication thing is dodgy in written communication.

I never thought for a minute that you were doing or saying anything critical. And I only responded for clarification. i wasn't in the least bit offended, upset or otherwise perturbed.

Please don't be concerned. I can get a little bit businesslike in my tone sometimes and I'm sorry if that is what came over to you. It wasn't intended at all.

I've been enjoying our little exchange immensely. Sending you lots of love and hugs to prove it! Love, love, love, love, love - hugs, hugs, hugs, hugs, hugs, hugs.
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Re: Rules/Structure Regarding Apologies

Postby Meg » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:54 pm

Love and hugs back, Julia. I have been enjoying this exchange a great deal as well :). Good...I am glad I didn't upset or offend. Although, I *did* have to check in with O about whether our ritual was too burdensome for her...and she said, "No, honey, I like it." So, I guess it is all good.
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Re: Rules/Structure Regarding Apologies

Postby Meg » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:07 am

I think that we may be starting to come up with a framework for this.

Rituals are really nice, but for us, they do not work well in the heat of the moment to diffuse conflict. We have tried to set up several different ones throughout the years, and they never did work. I think the reason for that is that, honestly, neither one of us remember to do the ritual when things are tense. Well, I *might* remember, which will make things worse, because if O doesn't, it sets up the situation where I blame her for the fight...which tends to be counter-productive. :blush: Rituals work *far* better for us when they are scheduled rituals, like the bedtime one.

I think that the other problem is that all of the frameworks we have come up with in the past really involve taking away my control....and although, that needs to happen in order to reset the dynamic, it is unrealistic for me to think that I am able to do this when I am still freaked out or upset. Being half Scandinavian, and being raised by the Scandinavian half of my family, I think that I can just "tough it out" and do what I need to do, even when it is scary or I am freaked out. I need to realize that I need to get to a space where I can handle things, too.

It is fairly natural for O to say, in the heat of the moment, "Go to your room!" To me, this meant I was supposed to go to my room and wait until she was ready to discipline me...which *is*, in fact, what it meant. The problem is that this is pretty scary to me, I can't do it for very long, and I get pretty escalated...instead of calming down, I am getting worse. In talking, we looked at this, and maybe the simplest thing to do would be to change the meaning of this to going to my room until I am ready to apologize. I could also say that I needed to go to my room, would would mean the same thing.

This would give me a little control over the situation, and instead of waiting for doom, I can be actively working towards calming down. As part of that, if O comes into the room before I was ready....then, I am not responsible for snapping...but, when I do come out, I am responsible. Checking the tone, like Julia, discussed would be a good idea. Actually, O thought it would be a good idea for her to check the tone with me if she initiates the process as well.
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Re: Rules/Structure Regarding Apologies

Postby Julia » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:08 am

In talking, we looked at this, and maybe the simplest thing to do would be to change the meaning of this to going to my room until I am ready to apologize. I could also say that I needed to go to my room, would would mean the same thing.


That's what I was driving at, Amethyst! Finding a way of giving you both the space you need while making it possible for you to do something to initiate a suitable apology/submissive atmosphere. At the same time, Obsidian knows what's going on while you're away and can prepare herself to hear you.

Our way was more formalised because of my ex's culture and expectations but the elements are the same. In essence, you are both actively and deliberately setting yourselves up for a resolution rather than for a continuation of the problem.

Good job, you guys! :elephant: :elephant: :elephant:
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Re: Rules/Structure Regarding Apologies

Postby Meg » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:46 pm

Thanks, Julia :).

Haven't had the opportunity to put it in practice....I've been pretty good. My last punishment was *extremely* effective :blush:

But...now it is right here if we need to remember next time, which *hopefully* won't happen again for quite some time.
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Re: Rules/Structure Regarding Apologies

Postby Eayore » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:05 am

Julia wrote:I hope something here can give someone an idea about the value of formality in apologies rather than just making everyone think I'm a freak! You know what they say - don't knock it till you've tried it! :)

I'm catching up with the board, and I've only just read this thread. I wanted to say, this description of the formal apology you used to make with that partner seemed wondrous to me. Extreme yes; freaky not at all!

I would love to know which of you suggested to do it that way, and also how 'bad' the reason for the apology would need to be, for that to be required!

Julia, you also mentioned that even now when you say the words "I owe you an apology" you feel sick in your stomach and your face is burning. Do you think that is because you are choosing to have this reaction? I ask this because there are certain phrases where I get a powerful anxious feeling in my body, and I have often thought I could choose not to (but I don't want to, because I quite like it).
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Re: Rules/Structure Regarding Apologies

Postby Julia » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:32 am

Eayore wrote:
Julia wrote:I hope something here can give someone an idea about the value of formality in apologies rather than just making everyone think I'm a freak! You know what they say - don't knock it till you've tried it! :)

I'm catching up with the board, and I've only just read this thread. I wanted to say, this description of the formal apology you used to make with that partner seemed wondrous to me. Extreme yes; freaky not at all!

I would love to know which of you suggested to do it that way, and also how 'bad' the reason for the apology would need to be, for that to be required!

Julia, you also mentioned that even now when you say the words "I owe you an apology" you feel sick in your stomach and your face is burning. Do you think that is because you are choosing to have this reaction? I ask this because there are certain phrases where I get a powerful anxious feeling in my body, and I have often thought I could choose not to (but I don't want to, because I quite like it).


Hi Eeyore- long time no see. How the devil are you, darling?

Some answers are required I see. Well.....who suggested this? I can GUARANTEE it wasn't me! In view of my ex-partner's Eastern background, I had to negotiate DOWN to this arrangement. She wanted much more formality and bodily expressions of submission. I seem to remember recoiling in horror when the word 'kowtow' was used in its literal sense!

How bad did it have to be? It really didn't matter how bad the original offence /fault was or wasn't. The key to when this process was used was that we had argued or had a 'heated debate' (fight) about something. I might have refused a punishment (REALLY bad) or we might have just got heated about who should take out the trash (frequent and minor in our way of doing things). One time I pushed her out of the way when she tried to discipline me. As soon as I calmed down a bit I was mortified at what I had done and practically begged her to punish me. Another time, I was late washing the car- which wasn't a huge deal in itself but the resulting disagreement meant we needed to use the system to put things back in order.

My reaction to "I owe you an apology" - do I choose it? I don't *think* so. But maybe I do need it to have that effect so maybe I choose to retain the significance. I need to think about that a bit more. Can anyone else help me out with this? I don't like it though. If I do subconsciously choose to retain the significance, it is because I know I need it rather than because I like it. I think. Hmmmm. :hmm:
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Re: Rules/Structure Regarding Apologies

Postby Meg » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:04 pm

I think that the thoughtful apology is intense because it is an admission and acknowledgement of wrongdoing, and doing so in the context of a ttwd relationship is usually a preclude to submission to discipline. I don't know if I have quite the same reaction to it as you do, Julia...but it is intense.

Well...we have had the opportunity to test the new structure. There have been three incidents that *could* have escalated, and giving both of us breathing room before I apologized or submitted, *did* keep things from escalating. One of the times, I did get punished, but it was just a regular, standard issue spanking. The other two times, O said, "You're good...I know that I was annoying" and she did not punish me...and it was ok. So...so far, so good. This may actually work.
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