Two homes, one relationship

Perhaps your household works without a structure. Go you. The rest of us mortals need to figure out how this thing works. This is a spot for talking about how we create the structure of our various domestic arrangements.

Re: Two homes, one relationship

Postby splorange » Fri May 04, 2012 10:35 am

Hi blackbird - sorry for chiming in, but what occurred to me in answer to your question (whether you should let ttwd lapse for a while) was that maybe you could let him take the initiative and wait for him on it, but try to keep yourself in a submissive place, and make that clear in the things you say to him. It might naturally bring out his dominant side, if you are constantly being respectful and submissive, without any risk that he would feel pushed.

Just a thought, I don't know much on the situation, so feel free to ignore! I love what you said about the jigsaw by the way - so true in many aspects of life! I also teach singing - I'm firstly a piano person (player/teacher) and secondly a choir person. Lovely to find another musician here.

Good luck! 0:)
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Re: Two homes, one relationship

Postby blackbird » Fri May 04, 2012 11:08 am

Don't be sorry splorange, it's lovely what you say...! and I will do just that, because, whatever the circumstances, I am happiest being submissive. I can do all the "sorted, intelligent woman" stuff but it gets exhausting....

But I won't insist on anything. I made my point and there is only so long one can go on flogging a paradox - ie, being assertive about one's submissive needs. It don't work....

I wonder, what would the smilie look like entitled - "paradox flogging"...?

la, la, la, la! - bet there are other musicians here.... :hiding: :hiding:

B
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Re: Two homes, one relationship

Postby splorange » Fri May 04, 2012 11:18 am

Well first you would need a picture of a paradox and then you would need a picture of a flogger... the latter is easy enough but what a picture of a paradox would look like is probably a paradox in itself! Best of luck to you. I'm sure there's a hug smilie but I can't find it, so *hugs* to you.

S
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Re: Two homes, one relationship

Postby altbob » Fri May 04, 2012 5:38 pm

@blackbird - on starting over, I would hold off on the DD stuff until you have the foundation of your relationship secured. You can still be yourself, and be as submissive as you wish. But I view this as aspice that is added to taste. So get the bulk of the dish done and fixed. Then sprinkle on DD.
I don't know if this is how T feels, but sometimes you can feel like a sub just wants a dom. They don't want YOU to be their dom necessarily. Anyone will do. So make sure he knows you are with him because he is him, no more no less. The fact that he also fits your submissive needs is a bonus.
Otherwise he may worry you'll leave him if hes too exhausted to dominate you.
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Re: Two homes, one relationship

Postby blackbird » Fri May 04, 2012 6:35 pm

altbob wrote:@blackbird - on starting over, I would hold off on the DD stuff until you have the foundation of your relationship secured. You can still be yourself, and be as submissive as you wish. But I view this as aspice that is added to taste. So get the bulk of the dish done and fixed. Then sprinkle on DD.
I don't know if this is how T feels, but sometimes you can feel like a sub just wants a dom. They don't want YOU to be their dom necessarily. Anyone will do. So make sure he knows you are with him because he is him, no more no less. The fact that he also fits your submissive needs is a bonus.
Otherwise he may worry you'll leave him if hes too exhausted to dominate you.


You've put your finger on it.... and we are just going to out for dinner next time we meet, nothing heavy.

The thing I need to express here is I was exhausted looking after all his needs.... I feared, on a deeper level, that if I didn't, I would be abandoned - and I have really realised that I have to own that fear. The difference between us though is I have had more courage and awareness to push for change, challenge things, all along, but particularly now. Though it's been tough, I was the one that made him reclaim his flat, his "cave". I knew he needed to. And what I've learnt is I can't be both mother hen and submissive at the same time. They need to co-exist, but with space between them somehow. Working on that. What I won't do, and this is definitely the feminist in me, is subsume (!) my need into his - ie let him carry on living with me because it suited him not to look at deeper stuff, and take responsibility for himself. And, ironically, this week, to state my submissive needs loudly has been the only way I could stick up for my freedom and individuality.

So yes, I'm sure he feels right now that I just want to be submissive, and it wouldn't matter who my dom was. I have been that angry at having to change things on my own. But that's not all I feel...

I actually really disagree about sprinkling DD on top of something already good. There has to be the outer relationship, of course, but I have found out so much about HOW to relate through trusting my sexuality that I could never see it as an add on. Each to his own though...

Thanks for your thoughts, altbob.
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Re: Two homes, one relationship

Postby JigsawAnalogy » Fri May 04, 2012 10:43 pm

altbob wrote:So get the bulk of the dish done and fixed. Then sprinkle on DD.


I think this may differ depending on where DD is in one's core self. For me, ttwd is probably necessary to allow me to fully engage in the relationship. In some ways, it's particularly necessary with W, because otherwise our power dynamics get really off-balance. But in general, I'm not fully myself if that submissive aspect of who I am (trying to be clear that this isn't specifically an "alter," particularly since several different parts of my system have submissive aspects).

So I think that W and I could not be where we are in our relationship without having had, and continuing to have, ttwd.

blackbird wrote:The thing I need to express here is I was exhausted looking after all his needs.... I feared, on a deeper level, that if I didn't, I would be abandoned - and I have really realised that I have to own that fear.


Oh, wow, have I had to deal with that feeling!

One of the things I had to learn was about "individuation" as our therapist calls it--learning to be aware of my own needs, separate from W, and hers separate from me. And finding the balance between those two things can be really hard, particularly if one was taught (as I was) that the way for me to express love was to anticipate someone's every desire, with the threat of their love being taken away if I didn't. Etc.

blackbird wrote:And what I've learnt is I can't be both mother hen and submissive at the same time.


Yeah. These are very different aspects and approaches. Mind you, I think there are people who can pull it off, but for me when I'm in a care-taking role, I'm generally pretty assertive. (And this works better with W, I think, because she responds best to some of the care-taking when I'm more authoritative about it)

altbob wrote: So make sure he knows you are with him because he is him, no more no less.


I think that this is vital. To me, a relationship wouldn't work at all if ttwd were the only thing going for it. And I think the thing that carries us through the times when ttwd isn't working well is that we've got all of those other things we share. We're particularly lucky that way--we might have things we *don't* share, but even if we weren't partners, we would have wound up being really good friends (well, probably not if things went haywire with the relationship... but I can't imagine that happening. And mostly, that's because not only do I think there isn't someone else who would match me as well as W does, but also because we've now got ten and a half years of shared experience, and no one else in the world is going to have our original compatibility plus ten years of in-jokes to go back to. :cheesy: )

blackbird wrote:The difference between us though is I have had more courage and awareness to push for change, challenge things, all along, but particularly now.


This is definitely true for me and W as well. I think, with me, it's that I've got much less ability to ignore things that make me unhappy. When something upsets W, she can tune out the entire world, and normalize things in her mind that I would get fixated on changing. And since I love W, it means that I have trouble ignoring the things that make *her* unhappy, and I get fixated on changing *those*, too. It can bug the heck out of people, because once I start working on a problem, I have a hard time letting it go :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: but I've found that persistence has eventually resulted in such improvements that I'm inclined to keep it up.
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Re: Two homes, one relationship

Postby blackbird » Sat May 05, 2012 2:37 am

oooooooooooooohhhhhhhhh I LOVE your post JA. :walklike: :walklike: :walklike:

You have nailed this, absolutely for me. THANK YOU!!!!!

Especially the parts about individuation (also a big word in my life from therapy) and your description of worrying at problems like a dog with a bone. I am precisely like that, and I am usually right. And that's why I badly need to be across T's knee, because he can't take it all the time. I "see" things emotionally - but don't always find the best ways to impart that or live with someone else who can't look at things. It's partly nature and partly all the work I've had to do to just stay alive through the aftermath of my early family life (mine were precisely as you describe). I am so backed up in my point of view by the work I do. To teach someone to sing, is really to release them from all the strictures they have built up over the years. They come to me, and I know we are engaged in nothing short of long term therapy. Some can go there, some can't but what ends up happening is that the problems they have vocally exactly mirror the rest of life. Someone might be able to sing high and low, but not join the sound up in the middle. And then they slowly (very slowly) find that it's because that's their relationship to their soul. They whirl around on the surface and deep down they know who they are - but their everyday living is so compromised by a stifling intimacy with someone that they don't have the chance to allow the parts to merge. Consequently neither end of the voice is stable, full and released. That's just one example...

It's so maddening to be able to see, but to still be a work in progress oneself!!!!!! I have felt so kack-handed lately. But I know it's the only way real change happens, messily, through experiment and shed-loads of painful confusion. Oh, and there's the joy of course :snoopy: :snoopy:

I am hopeful for me and T. Because we DO share so much else. The agongy angle of my writing on this forum has been so helpful but it's not representative of all of me by any means. I was thinking last night, it has some constraints which are a very hard discipline for a bouncy person like me. I can feel so many different things in quick succession that I have to slow down and compose myself - how do you do it JA???? It makes me long to sit and have a conversation with you...

I am still chuckling about the inventing a round thing to put under a car to make it go, W....

Anyway, tonight we are going out for dinner - meeting outside the shop where I went to buy lingerie to meet T in, before I knew him. Seems like an appropriate place to start again!! How I WISH I was ten years on, though there are a lot of in-jokes built up in the 9 months we have been together. Here's hoping something new and exciting for both of us can be born.

B (I wish I had a little blackbird smilie - it says you can make them. Can I?)
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Re: Two homes, one relationship

Postby altbob » Sat May 05, 2012 3:15 am

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

I do wish to clarify something a little. You both responded to what I wrote, but not what I meant. You need to touch the monitor and get the mental imprint of what I'm trying to say.
:vibes3:

About the sprinkling DD on, that was a poor choice of words. I didn't mean to imply it shouldn't be a core part of the relationship. Maybe sex is a better example? You can date and spend time building up a relationship before you add sex to it. However, that is not to minimize the importance of sex in a relationship.
I think I am thinking of DD as a way to
1 shift power
2 shift responsibly
3 provide comfort
4 provide security.

There may be other things as well. But DD can't be the only way you get these things. Well, except for some of the power things. You need to build the comfort and rapport before starting to mess with the powerful mojo that DD can bring, just as it can be a good idea to wait on sex so it doesn't confuse things before your relationship is ready for it.
This is just my opinion, and not even the only way I can see it working. I tend to focus on how everything can go wrong, then plan on ways to stage things so they don't, as much as possible.
I hope this does a better job of conveying what I was trying to say.
Of course, this particular post is more for me, since it seems you are on a good path Blackbird and already figured things out. I am just a little obsessive when I miscommunicate. In person, I am fine with having a discussion with someone and them completely disagreeing with me. However, it will drive me crazy if I can't get them to disagree with what I actually said, rather than what they think I said.
I'm better that I used to be, believe it or not.

Anyway, good luck to you. May you someday have a relationship with history that allows you to take other fledglings under your wing, so that you may teach them to fly as JA and W do here for us.
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Re: Two homes, one relationship

Postby blackbird » Sat May 05, 2012 5:08 am

It's ok altbob. I do understand your meaning now. And I see it is a perfectly reasonable way to forge a relationship. Trouble is, T and I met through IC, he came round in order to spank me primarily in the beginning. So I can't turn that clock back, however much I wish I had done it as you suggest to begin with. We jumped in with both feet, only then to realise how amazingly well we get on in every other aspect too. But what I can do is take the pressure off. We can have boundaries to keep us safe whilst we work out how to begin again. I have just printed off a raft of essays by lilianne, from the IE website (don't be horrified, I'm not about to enslave myself) so that T can read around the dynamics of D/s, as his way is cerebral first. What I'm finding is that there is lots from the sub perspective, but not a lot on how a dom grows into the role. How did you? Do you know of anything I could give T to read about it?

I do so understand your frustration about being misunderstood. In an earlier post, because no-one has the wider context of my life, I was truly horrified that people thought I wanted to subsume myself into T in some fantasy, extreme way. I had to really struggle not to react straight away and make myselft sit and write back calmly :banghead:. I'm quite proud that I managed it actually...

Thanks so much for clarifying. You are a diamond. (now I need a diamond smilie too...!)

B
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Re: Two homes, one relationship

Postby JigsawAnalogy » Sat May 05, 2012 9:54 am

blackbird wrote:I can feel so many different things in quick succession that I have to slow down and compose myself - how do you do it JA????


1. I'm an introvert, so in order to reduce how crazy I am, I need to spend time alone.
2. I'm a writer, so when I'm alone, I have a tendency to want to write things down, and that's a way I've used to understand myself for decades.
3. I've practiced the calming/composition even when it doesn't come naturally. It takes work, and even after years of doing it, it can still be a struggle.

4. One benefit of being multiple is that I can talk to "myself." Learning to cope with different parts--who sometimes all talk at once, and (particularly when things were bad) didn't necessarily "talk" in ways that other parts could actually hear. I also had to learn that just because we're in the same brain didn't mean that any one part would know what another part was thinking. So learning to communicate between parts was challenging, but helped with the "slow down and compose myself." In order to avoid my life going haywire, I need to be able to come to some level of internal consensus. I think that people who aren't multiple probably have many of the same issues, without those various parts of themselves having a clear voice, and (I'm guessing) without the ability to go "inside" and have a meeting.





blackbird wrote:B (I wish I had a little blackbird smilie - it says you can make them. Can I?)

If you can find one online, or if you know how to create one, please do! I am willing to give it a try as well, although I'm not sure when I'll manage. :jester:
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Re: Two homes, one relationship

Postby JigsawAnalogy » Sat May 05, 2012 10:17 am

Ah well. I didn't mean to hit post after that, but perhaps it's just as well. :bunny:

altbob wrote:You need to touch the monitor and get the mental imprint of what I'm trying to say.


Altbob, if you create the technology that makes that possible, you will either be a wealthy man or you will destroy the complication and confusion that generates probably 2/3 of what we see on the internet. I mean, what on earth would it be like to read an article online and not fear reading the comments section?

altbob wrote:But DD can't be the only way you get these things. Well, except for some of the power things. You need to build the comfort and rapport before starting to mess with the powerful mojo that DD can bring, just as it can be a good idea to wait on sex so it doesn't confuse things before your relationship is ready for it.


That make sense to me. The main element I see there is that a relationship needs to be built on a secure foundation that encompasses more than just one aspect of your lives. If the only thing going for you as a couple is DD (or ttwd however you practice it), then things are not going to last. I admit that in both of my long-term relationships, we were in bed together very early on, and that worked for us. But we also knew before doing that that we had a lot of other things in common, and I don't think that I, personally, could have sex without knowing that the other person and I shared something solid. And much as I have fantasies about just hiring a professional disciplinarian when ttwd is going haywire between me and W, I think it would work about as well for us as if one of us went outside the relationship to get our sexual needs met when the other isn't able to do that. Which isn't to say that can't work in other relationships, because I'm sure it does work for some people. I'm just not wired that way.

altbob wrote:However, it will drive me crazy if I can't get them to disagree with what I actually said, rather than what they think I said.


This is probably one of the reasons I like you so well! (And one of the reasons so many people seem to dislike having arguments with me, since I do much the same thing.)

blackbird wrote:What I'm finding is that there is lots from the sub perspective, but not a lot on how a dom grows into the role. How did you? Do you know of anything I could give T to read about it?


What are the odds of convincing him to come here and talk to some of the tops on the board? (That's a part of why I created this forum, actually, so that W could get that kind of support.)

blackbird wrote:In an earlier post, because no-one has the wider context of my life, I was truly horrified that people thought I wanted to subsume myself into T in some fantasy, extreme way.


I am sorry for my part in that confusion! On the other hand, I also know that at times I have that impulse, even if I understand that it wouldn't really work out. I *want* W to know what I'm thinking without me having to say anything, and I *want* to have her be an always-on top (wait, probably I don't... but there is the occasional impulse). Hell, if there were a way that W topping me would mean that I were able to do all of the housework and exercise and get a job, I would JUMP on that train. It's taken a lot of work for me to realize that there's a difference between W helping me with something and with that help being able to actually solve the problem. And it took even more work for me to do the combination of accepting my limitations (ie, understanding that I'm not lazy, I'm disabled) and understanding that no matter how hard I *thought* I was working at something, I was still the one who had to figure out how to take the next step (say, in quitting smoking or learning to deal with depression).

Boy, life is complicated! :roll:
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Re: Two homes, one relationship

Postby blackbird » Sat May 05, 2012 10:42 am

That is so honest, JA, I'm glad you hit post....

B
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Re: Two homes, one relationship

Postby blackbird » Sat May 05, 2012 10:49 am

JigsawAnalogy wrote:
blackbird wrote:I can feel so many different things in quick succession that I have to slow down and compose myself - how do you do it JA????


1. I'm an introvert, so in order to reduce how crazy I am, I need to spend time alone.
2. I'm a writer, so when I'm alone, I have a tendency to want to write things down, and that's a way I've used to understand myself for decades.
3. I've practiced the calming/composition even when it doesn't come naturally. It takes work, and even after years of doing it, it can still be a struggle.

4. One benefit of being multiple is that I can talk to "myself." Learning to cope with different parts--who sometimes all talk at once, and (particularly when things were bad) didn't necessarily "talk" in ways that other parts could actually hear. I also had to learn that just because we're in the same brain didn't mean that any one part would know what another part was thinking. So learning to communicate between parts was challenging, but helped with the "slow down and compose myself." In order to avoid my life going haywire, I need to be able to come to some level of internal consensus. I think that people who aren't multiple probably have many of the same issues, without those various parts of themselves having a clear voice, and (I'm guessing) without the ability to go "inside" and have a meeting.

This is so, so interesting to me. Thanks for writing it. It is very similar to what I struggle with and such a help. Time alone, though seemingly in direct contrast to my sub needs, is so important to me in order to come to rest with all the different parts of me. Having now included this sub, child, new bit (whatever!) I am finding I don't want to talk to ANYONE - least of all T. I need to find a way with it myself. That's how I've always done it.

EXCEPT!!!!: when T puts me into highest submission level, I have the space and time to be quiet with myself, and not be alone. We don't bother each other, the signals are clear and we can each deal with our own stuff but still have each other. Oh, it gets clearer!

But then, we are not going for dinner because he is busy rescuing a friend, instead of himself... so I don't know if I'll get there with him. Hope so.

B
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Re: Two homes, one relationship

Postby splorange » Sat May 05, 2012 1:04 pm

Wow. This discussion is so deep, articulate, and generally incredible. You are all such great thinkers! I really wish you luck, blackbird. I read your introductory posts, and it sounds like T is who you need as a person as well as to be your Top. I really feel this is going to work out for you, so courage!

Another suggestion - for short periods only (I'm quite sure it wouldn't work for longer ones) could you try to frame giving him what he needs as submission in your own mind? As in, tell yourself 'Today I will please my Top by ....' and then doing the things you describe as looking after him and being a mother hen - because you choose to submit, instead of him telling you to? And I agree, being the person who helps out, and makes everything better, really seems incompatible with being submissive! But being in the headspace is all-important. Also, that submission is a choice... So you aren't looking after him out of fear of losing him, but because you want to.

Also spotted that you're in the UK! I'm in Ireland, so just across the little pond, rather than the gigantic one. Sorry, I'm not wanting to come off as stalky. But I do want to engage with your problem and the background helps.

Wishing you all the best,
S
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Re: Two homes, one relationship

Postby blackbird » Sat May 05, 2012 2:04 pm

Oh sweetheart! I don't take that as stalky. I feel touched by your interest. I read your post again in an Irish accent... sounded even lovlier, although I don't know if you are actually Irish of course!

I think what you say is an interesting proposition, in fact, I tried it - to attempt to calm things down between us. But I found that you can't submit to someone who is elsewhere. A very intellectual book, 'Masochimsm: an aplogy' argues something similar. The definitioin of submission is that there has to be someone to submit to.

There's the rub. I don't believe, at present, that T wants, or rather, is able to be my dom. I think it sits deeply within him as a need, because the body doesn't lie and his fantasies - and active desires for ttwd - are the same as mine. But he also has many 'frozen' areas of himself, where he feels threatened to be understood and blocks me out. As I said earlier to JA, I tend to steam in and point things out, and am usually right - BUT you can't change someone - that I have learned the painful way too.

So I am waiting. Not in my usual way. The sub in me knows he is right for me, as your rather heart-warming hunch has it. But, I can't make him do anything - which is an agony.... But the outcome of that awareness, is I am starting to look after that part of me myself (indi-bloody-viduation no doubt - God I hate it when it's happening - a bit like a spanking). That, today, has involved a swim, lots of sitting about, sometimes with a cuddly toy, an appointment with the wrong end of a wine bottle, a date with The Voice on BBC1 tonight - (I kinda love it and hate it), and staying as quiet as possible. But it's nice to talk to you...

I am going for lunch with him tomorrow - so the doors are still open.

So lovely to meet you Splorange. But please explain the name. I feel strange saying it. But it's no stranger, of course, than Jigsaw Analogy.... or altbob (I always wonder if the alt refers to a computer keyboard, or being alternative). If anyone is interested I am Blackbird, because it's the smith's bird - and the blacksmith represents working on all the elements of the soul - "integrating and developing our minds and hearts, our instinct and our intuition" says my Druid Animal book.

Now I will get my finger out of my arse and watch some bloody brave people singing....

B
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