Letting Go of Control

[Julia]

Those teacher situations are great ones to learn from. Teachers (of many subjects and disciplines) somehow develop the ability to know what they want and to communicate that *effectively* in some way!

But what is effective teacher/top communication? I mean what is it about the way they communicate that makes it effective/forceful and precludes argument or rebellion? I have had teachers who used to ask our class to do something a dozen times and nobody paid the least bit of attention. On the other hand, I had one teacher who got exactly what she wanted from us time after time. I remember vividly that I was once caught looking at a French book in her English lesson. (It was sort of innocent really. I was trying to remember which French exercise I had to do for homework and needed to check it before I forgot the page. It was right at the start of the class when nobody was ready to work yet and I thought I had time.) She listened to my explanation and gave me 10 lines: "I must not use my French books in English lessons". Not a devastating punishment. But I only crossed her again once in five years. (The second time was not so pretty - a metaphorical bloodbath from my point of view! )

She just had something and I've never been able to pin down what it was.

I Know this is a different context from TTWD but the feeling is similar and the outcome is a desirable one from a TTWD point of view.

Hmmmmmmm. Y'all have got me thinking now!

[JigsawAnalogy]

I'm not sure how different teaching is from ttwd, actually. I know that W has found herself becoming more effective as a teacher when she uses tools she developed via ttwd (not the punishments, so much as the tone and body language). Of course, she had only been teaching for a few years when we started ttwd, and I think her development as a teacher would have happened regardless of what was going on in our relationship. But I like to think that at least *some* of her improvement comes from having the chance to practice at home.

[Meg]

I think that one of my issues with "faking" is....is well, first off....Obsidian is not really good at faking things she is not feeling...sorry, if you are reading this, Obsidian...but you are really not. The other thing is that I then feel like she is doing it *just* for me, and is not into it herself.

As far as processing afterwards, I wasn't really talking about the mechanics of the discipline. I am talking more about whatever the underlying "issue" was. For example, if I am disciplined for mouthing off or arguing, it helps if we can talk *afterwards* about what upset me in the first place. This works better than before...when I am likely still angry, and if Obsidian feels like *she* did something wrong, or if I convince her with my arguments, she might back down from discipline, which makes things much worse...even if my arguments were right. Talking about it afterwards gives me both the consistency I need, but then I still feel "heard"...if this makes sense.

[Eayore]

Yes that makes sense to me, and I have found the same thing on numerous occasions.

[TryingReallyHard]

I kind of really love this thread. A lot.

[realhard]

[Meg]

Hi RH...everything you said could be coming right from Obsidian. I think that this is why message board can be a bit intimidating for Obsidian...lots and lots of information...information overload. I wish there was a way to explain things to her in 10 words or less or if there was a little handy-dandy chart to say what I needed and where I was coming from.

One of the things that I figured out recently is that part of the problem is that I think that Tops and bottoms are wired differently. The Golden Rule can not apply to Top/bottom interactions, because I know for a fact that Obsidian would absolutely *hate* being treated the way I want her to treat me...and I would absolutely *hate* her interacting with me the way she likes me to interact with her. I have noticed this in other situations. Sometimes when interacting with authority figures in real life who do some "Topping" of us...Obsidian will find it completely annoying, but, depending on the person and the situation, I might like it. Don't get me wrong...I love her more than anything, and would not want anyone but her, but I am talking about my automatic response to things.

With respect to bottoms giving information, this is really tricky....because I think that there is a fine line between giving your Top information they need to know and "topping from the bottom." I know from my end, I have absolutely no problem giving Obsidian information, and then some, but for things to really "work", I have to be able to relax, step back, and let Obsidian do her thing. If I am in a mindset where, even silently, I am analyzing and critiquing what she is doing, things won't feel "right", no matter what she does. The metaphor I thought of was in Dirty Dancing, where Baby and Johnny were working on lifts. There was no question that Johnny knew what he was doing, but the lift could not work unless Baby let go, relaxed, and could avoid tensing up even unconsciously. A moment of panic from Baby could destroy the entire lift. Now, of course, in order to do that, Baby had to have confidence that Johnny was strong enough and steady enough to lift her....but, despite appearances, Baby had just as much of a role in making the lift work as Johnny did. If she was busy analyzing his stance and whether was doing things right, she could never trust enough for the lift to work.

Ah...the eternal question...when the Top screws up. One thing that I have found, is that in some ways, it really doesn't matter who was right or wrong in an argument...whether over ttwd or real life. I am incredibly good at arguing, and can twist things around to the point where I should never get punished...and my arguments can easily turn into ing. The reality is that for almost all of the arguments Obsidian and I have (most of which are *extremely* silly...i.e., the dinner argument above)...maintaining the dynamic is *far* more important than the underlying issue. And frankly, I usually did, at least at some point, do something that deserved discipline...if only by being disrespectful. If a cop pulls me over, even wrongfully, and I am disrespectful to the cop, I am likely to be arrested. Often, I am arguing because I want to be "heard" and "validated"...but, even when arguing, I know for the dynamic to work...I have to lose. If I win, in the long term, both of us lose...by Obsidian's decreased confidence, and my decreased respect. By disciplining me, she is protecting the dynamic; by talking with me afterward, she makes me feel "heard". Both acts make me feel loved.

[TryingReallyHard]

[realhard]

[Meg]

[W-Jigsaw'sBoss]

J and I have been discussing the whole "justification" idea. I TOTALLY get it, and I think that 80 percent of my trouble comes down to this. Or at least, what I ***think*** they meant (that was Realhard, right?).

When we're in a situation where my authority is in question, or J is needing to be assured of my authority, sometimes it isn't CLEAR to me what the right steps are, or whether that's what's actually going on. I find myself wondering what the right thing to do is right then. When I am sure of what the right thing to do is, I do it, with conviction, and sometimes it's a successful disciplinary scene and sometimes it isn't. J says that when I don't express that conviction, she loses trust and the ability to see me as the authority. That's when conflicts happen and behaviors get ramped up into something much worse.

J thinks the "justification" idea is more about the lack of conviction and right as the authority than knowing the reasons behind discipline. If I know J is giving me signs that she needs discipline but I don't see anything to respond to that isn't fairly arbitrary, like percieved attitude or not liking choices she's made, I don't have as much... oomph. As we say in theatre, "What's my motivation for this choice?" It's hard for me to "fake it" if I don't actually believe she did anything wrong. HOWEVER, if she's giving me signs that she's needing a tighter rein, I need to find SOMETHING.

[Meg]

I think that I do not have the same definition of "waffling" as RH and W...I am not sure of the rest.

To me, "waffling" is when a rule has been set, I break the rule, and the consequence that was agreed upon doesn't happen, or becomes one of endless warnings. Then the consequence is justified, at least it was agreed upon. I am not asking for a scene...I am asking for follow through on what we had agreed upon. If, in fact, the rule isn't working or is unworkable fine....but the time to renegotiate that is not when the consequence is supposed to happen...maybe before a misbehavior and maybe after the consequence, but not at the time right after the misbehavior when the consequence is supposed to occur. It is also waffling to me, when we a agree on something for me to do to avoid misbehaving, I do it, and Obsidian flakes out and does not do the thing I asked for to help me not misbehave.

The real problem, for me, comes when either of the above happens, and I start getting mad and lose confidence with Obsidian. Then we often get into a fight, and she gets really mad at me. She thinks that I am telling her what to do, and I think that I am trying to tell her what I need....and things blow up big time. THEN she wants to discipline me. At that time, I think that it is unfair, because if she had just followed through with what we agreed, the fight would not have happened. I know that the discipline probably needs to occur to keep the dynamic...but, to me, it was a real breach of trust...and it is real hard for me to submit to her after such a breach of trust.

If I have not misbehaved or broken any rules, then it is not discipline...it is something else...maintenance, erotic play.

Sorry, if this is coming out harshly, but we are having a rough night.

[JigsawAnalogy]

[Meg]

[Meg]

After a very rough day, following an *extremely* difficult night...Obsidian and I came to a conclusion. She came to it first, and then I later understood and accepted it.

If Obsidian is to truly be in control of our dynamic, then she must be the one responsible for it, not me. If things go wrong, she is ultimately responsible, and she is the one responsible for making things right. My responsibility is to follow the rules, as well as I am able, to accept discipline when necessary, to perform the tasks assigned to me, and to manage the professional end of my business. I am also responsible for giving her any information she may need. While I can suggest rules, I do not make them, nor am I responsible for seeing to it that they are enforced.

I really resisted this: 1) because it seemed wrong, as an adult, to not assume responsibility for things; and 2) because my coping mechanism growing up was to take responsibility for *everything*....if it was my fault, then, at least, I had some control over the craziness.

In reality, though, as long as I feel like I am responsible for making sure the dynamics "work", then I will never be able to give over control...and Obsidian will never be able to take control unless she assumes the responsibility for the dynamics. This is *really* scary for me....but it feels "right". Things may not go as I think that they should, and we will definitely have setbacks...but that is really not my responsibility, and I need to let go of that. I also need to trust that she will take care of the relationship, me, and herself, that she *does* care about the relationship and about me.

Wow.